Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 8:34 am

speedbird2639 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote: the racist, moronic, insular morons won’t win.


I case you haven't realised we've already won - the referendum was over 2 years ago and we will leave in March 2019 - the only debate remaining is whether there is a deal in place or not when we do leave. looking increasingly like 'Not' currently.


Well, at least you know what you are.

And if you think this country will “leave” in any real sense, you really are deluded. Interesting that the Prime Minister herself has said that “no Brexit” indeed remains an option.

Looks like the thick, racist, bigoted turkeys voting for Christmas might need to watch their blood pressure a little while longer.
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Georgeconna on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:01 am

Pretty bad loser Dan in all fairness, Suck it up and deal with it and your language{}Y toward the opposite site is Frankly disgusting. No point in Cribbing now. Fab Box office though. :grin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:04 am

Georgeconna wrote:Pretty bad loser Dan in all fairness, Suck it up and deal with it and your language{}Y toward the opposite site is Frankly disgusting. No point in Cribbing now. Fab Box office though. :grin:


If nothing else, perhaps Brexit might limit the number of capital letters allowed in forum posts.
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:21 am

Got to say Dan, much as you like to rile people up (and there's nothing wrong with that) referring to your political opponents as thick, racist, morons will not help you win the argument.

The remain side has been regurgitating this 'racist' rubbish since day one. We now have a potential deal in place that severely curbs freedom of movement and most leavers hate it because we are still beholden in a political sense to the EU. If this isn't proof that remain has been wrong about leave all along I don't know what is.

There is a case for remain, and a case for leave - but this partisan, ad hominem stuff really needs to stop if we have any chance of being a 'United' Kingdom again.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 9:22 am

One of the issues over the whole saga has been the lack of adult debate and too much play ground mud slinging on both sides. Dan's posts are a perfect example of this. Achieves nothing and just ratchets up anger and ill feeling. There's no need for it IMHO

The issue for me is not Brexit itself: but the quality of MPs that we put into the Commons. They have proved collectively that they don't have the skills, commitment and courage to come up with a viable outcome. Obsessed with party politics and their own positions rather than doing whats right for the country and having a defined vision from day one.

We are used to seeing them make dreadful decisions and run projects dreadfullly. Building projects, Defence procurement, schools, benefit etc etc. Ministers routinely mess things up but they are just fudged and cabinet shuffles combined with resignations followed by returning within months cover up the culprits and we, the voters, put up with it and keep voting them in time and time again. But , with Brexit, there is nowhere to hide and you cant imagine a bigger project. They have handled it with the same level of competence that they have with smaller challenges.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Paul_Reflex on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 12:51 pm

I really don't understand how calling out racism has become a worse crime than racism itself. Brexit is a fundamentally racist policy. That's why all of the racist parties, racist groups and prominent racist individuals both here and abroad support it.

To have a situation where this can't be said for fear of upsetting the racists would be intolerable. Hilary Clinton famously suffered this after her basket of deplorables comment. How will we get to a situation where we can challenge prejudice if we can't call it out when it's happening right in front of us.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 1:11 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:I really don't understand how calling out racism has become a worse crime than racism itself. Brexit is a fundamentally racist policy. That's why all of the racist parties, racist groups and prominent racist individuals both here and abroad support it.

To have a situation where this can't be said for fear of upsetting the racists would be intolerable. Hilary Clinton famously suffered this after her basket of deplorables comment. How will we get to a situation where we can challenge prejudice if we can't call it out when it's happening right in front of us.


Is it not prejudiced to make a statement that everyone who voted for Brexit is a thick racist moron?
starbuck

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 1:31 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:I really don't understand how calling out racism has become a worse crime than racism itself. Brexit is a fundamentally racist policy. That's why all of the racist parties, racist groups and prominent racist individuals both here and abroad support it.



Fundamentally a racist policy ? Fundamentally?

How is Brexit racist ?

How is wanting to leave the EU racist ?

Does that not just justify calling all Brexit supporters racist by some twisted logic ?

All racists voted Brexit does not equate to all Brexitiers are racist.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 2:17 pm

Pointing out racism is extremely important.

Labelling someone racist because you disagree with them is a horrendous thing to do.

Leaving the EU has literally nothing to do with race. It just doesn't.

The only (extremely tenuous) argument anyone can make linking the EU to racism is the fact that EU countries must abide by a free movement policy that exists only between predominantly white countries - therefore if I was to make a racism argument relating to Brexit, which I won't, it is that Remain is more racist than Leave.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Paul_Reflex on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 2:17 pm

This is what leavers don't seem to get about remainers. It's not us who have to answer these questions; we're not the ones who want to carry through this madness.

When we ask leavers to justify their position on Brexit we hear two main themes. The first is regarding migration. This seems to reflect some very nasty far right propaganda which a lot of us regard as racist. I used the word fundamental in my post above because the anti-migrant theme seems to have been key to the leave campaign.

The second theme is about sovereignty. This seems bonkers as any rational person can see that there can be no absolute sovereignty anymore without also extracting ourselves from NATO, the UN, the IMF, the world bank, etc.

Neither of these reasons are worth sacrificing the rights, freedoms, protections and prosperity of our children for and the first one is in the view of many at least xenophobic and to some outright racism.

There are many other concerns which us remainers have which aren't even addressed by the leavers or their leaders. For example, the extent to which the Russia/Wikileaks/Far right complex influenced the politics of Brexit and the referendum result itself and what the effect will be on our society of entering into free trade deals with the US and other countries whose commercial standards and regulation are very different to our own. Why not spend some time answering those questions instead of fighting remainers for pointing out the obvious motives of the campaigns.
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Paul_Reflex

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Paul_Reflex on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 2:21 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:Pointing out racism is extremely important.

Labelling someone racist because you disagree with them is a horrendous thing to do.

Leaving the EU has literally nothing to do with race. It just doesn't.

The only (extremely tenuous) argument anyone can make linking the EU to racism is the fact that EU countries must abide by a free movement policy that exists only between predominantly white countries - therefore if I was to make a racism argument relating to Brexit, which I won't, it is that Remain is more racist than Leave.


That isn't what racism means. There is only one race, the human race. Racism is about groups of people, whether seperated by nationality, skin colour or religious belief.
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Paul_Reflex

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 2:34 pm

There was a racist element in some of the pro-Leave campaigning, primarily based on the NAME illegal immigrant crisis in mainland Europe.
There was a greater element of xenophobia based on the 'Eastern European immigrants coming here stealing our jobs' mantra.

Does that mean that the majority of those who votel Leave were racists or xenophobes? No.

Illegal immigration & 'Free Movement' were - and still are - also issues for many who voted Remain, so if you claim Leave voters are racist then by default so are Remain voters.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 2:35 pm

The definitions of words are always changing but I have literally never heard of racism being used in that way (apart from ignorant people who describe, for instance, Islam as a race).

The definition after a quick google is as follows.

racism
/ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
"a programme to combat racism"
synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice/bigotry, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, bias, intolerance; More
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
"theories of racism"

By your definition saying "I think Scientology is a cult" is a racist statement.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Paul_Reflex on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 2:40 pm

I shall give up here I think as it's not possible to have this conversation now in good faith (on either side), not after what's happened. You can think what you like about the opinions of people like me or Dan O, but be assured that many, many people think this way about your calamitous project and the motivation behind it.
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Paul_Reflex

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 2:43 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:The definitions of words are always changing but I have literally never heard of racism being used in that way (apart from ignorant people who describe, for instance, Islam as a race)
(snip)
By your definition saying "I think Scientology is a cult" is a racist statement.

From the existence of many laws enacted in recent years, then that would indeed now be the case.
Similar to other laws which lead to situations where someone gets prosecuted for homophobia because they called a Police horse gay.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 2:45 pm

You’re now assuming that everyone who doesn’t think like you voted for Brexit ! - aimed at Paul Reflex.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby McG on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 3:00 pm

Article in today’s Times about a hedge fund boss / owner who happens to be a Brexit Supporter and donor to the leave campaign.

Turns out he made a shed load of money yesterday betting against the £.

Almost criminal the way some of the larger donors to Brexit are acting to short the £ and the share prices of British companies. These individuals aren’t interested in what the wider ramifications are in terms of potential job losses in the wider economy- they’re only interested in making money for themselves.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Paul_Reflex on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 3:03 pm

ericbee123 wrote:You’re now assuming that everyone who doesn’t think like you voted for Brexit ! - aimed at Paul Reflex.


My first reaction was to say no. Just that people who think like me didn't vote leave.

But on reflection, yes I think that is true to an extent. There's quite a lot of evidence about the social attitudes of people who voted either way. For example, and from memory, the most significant correlation was support for capital punishment.

It does feel to me as if we're separating into two discrete political groups and it's only a matter of time before our party politics exploits that. Sadly, the example of US politics shows us where that ends up.
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Paul_Reflex

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 3:04 pm

McG wrote:Article in today’s Times about a hedge fund boss / owner who happens to be a Brexit Supporter and donor to the leave campaign.

Turns out he made a shed load of money yesterday betting against the £.

Almost criminal the way some of the larger donors to Brexit are acting to short the £ and the share prices of British companies. These individuals aren’t interested in what the wider ramifications are in terms of potential job losses in the wider economy- they’re only interested in making money for themselves.


For the sake of both sides of an argument - how many hedge fund managers who voted Remain also made a lot of money doing the same thing yesterday ? One ? two?two hundred ? None ?
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ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 3:04 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:
ericbee123 wrote:You’re now assuming that everyone who doesn’t think like you voted for Brexit ! - aimed at Paul Reflex.


My first reaction was to say no. Just that people who think like me didn't vote leave.

But on reflection, yes I think that is true to an extent. There's quite a lot of evidence about the social attitudes of people who voted either way. For example, and from memory, the most significant correlation was support for capital punishment.

It does feel to me as if we're separating into two discrete political groups and it's only a matter of time before our party politics exploits that. Sadly, the example of US politics shows us where that ends up.


I voted Remain but don’t agree with you.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 3:25 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:I shall give up here I think as it's not possible to have this conversation now in good faith (on either side), not after what's happened. You can think what you like about the opinions of people like me or Dan O, but be assured that many, many people think this way about your calamitous project and the motivation behind it.


You can think what you like, but I know i'm not racist.

I guess I might be a moron... but then again, might we all?
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 3:28 pm

Logic and numbers just don’t add up

17,410,742 voters voted Leave.

12,500,000 voters didn’t bother voting. Let’s assume these were all under 30 , rather than assuming 50% of them would have voted Leave too, let’s say for arguments sake, and to appease those remainers who will cry “foul”, 25% of them would vote Leave too. So another 3,000,000 Leave voters who didn’t bother voting.

So that’s 20,500,000 racist, xenophobic morons in the U.K.

If that really was the case wouldn’t we have many more far right parties with massive support ?

I am in the minority of voters (that voted) who voted Remain, I do not believe the majority of voters (that voted) in the U.K. are racist, xenophobic morons.

Oh hang on, if those racist, xenophobic morons, change their mind and vote Remain in Brexitref2 are they suddenly no longer xenophobic morons ? Or are they just very fickle racist, xenophobic morons ?

Just want to make sure I know the correct insult for them.
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ericbee123

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 4:12 pm

ericbee123 wrote:You’re now assuming that everyone who doesn’t think like you voted for Brexit ! - aimed at Paul Reflex.


That can also be said of me at 62 I'm considered a brexiteer by the uneducated. Nothing could be futher from the truth.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 16 Nov 2018, 4:17 pm

ericbee123 wrote:Logic and numbers just don’t add up

17,410,742 voters voted Leave.

12,500,000 voters didn’t bother voting. Let’s assume these were all under 30 , rather than assuming 50% of them would have voted Leave too, let’s say for arguments sake, and to appease those remainers who will cry “foul”, 25% of them would vote Leave too. So another 3,000,000 Leave voters who didn’t bother voting.

So that’s 20,500,000 racist, xenophobic morons in the U.K.

If that really was the case wouldn’t we have many more far right parties with massive support ?

I am in the minority of voters (that voted) who voted Remain, I do not believe the majority of voters (that voted) in the U.K. are racist, xenophobic morons.

Oh hang on, if those racist, xenophobic morons, change their mind and vote Remain in Brexitref2 are they suddenly no longer xenophobic morons ? Or are they just very fickle racist, xenophobic morons ?

Just want to make sure I know the correct insult for them.


Because far right parties in this country are also white supremisists, so they wouldn't get any non white English people joining. I can't say for sure but I'm reasonable certain that there are racists of other colour in this country. 9/11 the killing of Lee Rigby, Manchester bombing, need I go on.
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