Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 5:09 pm

pbeardmore wrote:Not sure how your define "Brexiteers" . Again, we have seen this so many times, people putting people into huge blocks and making claims on their behalf. Some Brexiteers may be up in arms, some not. I would not dare to say that they are all thinking one thing or all thinking another.


Do you know what? Fair point. I apologise.

I was referring to the usual high-profile Brexiteers (including the ghastly No.10 accusations of bias), but your point is a fair one (I still think mine is, but I retract the lazily accidental reference to all Brexiteers).
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby IATthenRIAT on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 6:20 pm

Time for a change of govenment me thinks.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 7:01 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49665789
Boris Johnson will not make an election pact with Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage, Downing Street has said.

Mr Farage said his party and the Conservatives should make a deal and "together we would be unstoppable".

Two newspaper adverts set out his offer to help "secure a big Brexit majority" and to "destroy Corbyn's Labour".

But a senior Conservative source said Mr Farage was "not a fit and proper person" and "should never be allowed anywhere near government".


A bit bloody late now, given how much they were sucking up to him in the past.
No doubt someone's realised the clash of egos between him, BJ & JRM would be gargantuan.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Domvickery on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 7:24 pm

Where does this end?!

[url]Parliament suspension: Government refuses to publish No 10 communications https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670123[/url]
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:43 pm

Tommy wrote:
MiG_Eater wrote:The entire function of a parliament is to represent the people, and when parliament disagrees with a nationwide vote, it is obvious that it is the electorate's voice that should be listened to.


No!

That’s not the entire function of Parliament at all! The very opposite.

This is the most basic misunderstanding of British politics.

Politicians are not there to “do what we say”.

Politicians, in theory, are supposed to be elected as representatives, not delegates. You misunderstand what “representatives” means

It is the duty, nay obligation, of politicians to act on our behalf and in our best interests. Our best interests are not the same as what we tell them they are in the same way that acting in the best interests of a child is causing them to be upset by not giving in to their demands of sweets and junk food because, upset though they may be, their best interest is not to have rotten teeth or diabetes.

If an entire constituency voted for ever member to, idk, inject heroin into their veins, or paint every inch of the constituency blue, or to spend millions of pounds on a giant chocolate teapot, a politician is not there to say “oh well, that’s the “will of the people”, better get on with it” and comply. Their job is to say “are you guys completely and utterly mad? I don’t care that you all want to do it. It’s an awful idea and will be to all of your detriment.”

This is A-level politics (which I never studied Tbf).

So no, it’s not “the people should take precedence over MPs”. It’s the very opposite.



Tommy your heroin and chocolate tea pots analogies unfortunately, or maybe conveniently, ignores the fact that we have had a general election since the referendum and both the main parties stood on manifestos to "deliver Brexit". I accept that there are many various ways at looking at that typically vague statement, but it cannot be argued that there are a large proportion of MP's representing those two parties that are doing the damnedest to not keep to that pledge.

We send our MP's to parliament based upon their manifestos. If they put into their manifesto that they believe it is best for the country that we all inject heroin and crack open the blue paint and the majority of voters in this country happen to agree with them then it is not unreasonable that the British public should feel entitled that is what they do.

What you are actually describing is the exact metropolitan elitism of "we know better than you simpleton plebs" that has been one of the root causes of this whole fiasco in the first place.

If remain had won and we had a pro-leave parliament saying "I know you voted for me on a mandate we stay in but I believe its best we get out the EU so thats what I'm going to do anyway" I wouldn't mind betting your point of view would be different.

And to be fair to MigEater, talking about having no deal on the table has nothing to do with poker. Unless I missed it there was no mention of poker in his post. Poker is about gambling, having an alternative position and being able to walk away from the table is a fundamental in negotiation. Its never picked up on but it is a position the EU themselves are using - they have offered us a deal. If we don't accept it nobody in the EU parliament is standing up and saying "If the UK do not accept this deal we cannot let them leave, we must go back and offer them something else"

Finally (for now) I did smile at your request to stop using poker analogies and then proceed to use a new one that I hadn't seen mentioned anywhere before about the UK not affording the blind. :lol:
Last edited by starbuck on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:56 pm

I agree with starbuck. The bit where he said I was right. Yeah. That bit.

Maybe I have misunderstood the term 'representative' to mean something other than the standard definition 'a person chosen or appointed to act or speak for another or others.' But it seems quite obvious to me that the way I described it really ought to be what democracy is.

The alternative is to make each constituency a fiefdom where our Most Venerable and Wise MPs save us all from ourselves. :sick:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:05 pm

starbuck wrote:...being able to walk away from the table is a fundamental in negotiation. Its never picked up on but it is a position the EU themselves are using - they have offered us a deal. If we don't accept it nobody in the EU parliament is standing up and saying "If the UK do not accept this deal we cannot let them leave, we must go back and offer them something else"

Good grief. This, AGAIN!?

The EU aren't saying that, because contrary to what you were told before the referendum, they do not need us more than we need them. The EU is one of the three trading superpowers alongside China and the USA. If we choose to leave the club and cut our legs off, that's our lookout. We lose everything - they don't. Their trade deals stay in place. Their nuclear agency stays in place. Their fishing and aviation deals stay in place. Their member states remain in the customs union and single market. Their energy, food and fuel supplies continue as they did the day before. The burden of any loss they do feel is shared across 27 countries. We will lose everything, with the EU and everyone else the EU has deals with around the world.

I've already explained this countless times. Threatening "no deal" to them is stupid. They know full well what damage will be done, and to who - it's their rule book! They aren't scared of us threatening cut off our own limbs. We have nothing to threaten them with. Why do you still not understand this?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:11 pm

Tommy wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:Not sure how your define "Brexiteers" . Again, we have seen this so many times, people putting people into huge blocks and making claims on their behalf. Some Brexiteers may be up in arms, some not. I would not dare to say that they are all thinking one thing or all thinking another.


Do you know what? Fair point. I apologise.

I was referring to the usual high-profile Brexiteers (including the ghastly No.10 accusations of bias), but your point is a fair one (I still think mine is, but I retract the lazily accidental reference to all Brexiteers).


No worries

Plus, Tommy is spot on with the interpretation of "representative democracy".
Last edited by pbeardmore on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:12 pm

I do understand it. I've never advocated it or supported it. My point was that it is a fundamental position in a negotiation. Our negotiation has been a complete balls up from the very beginning, but then that is in line with the complete Brexit process from the day that Cameron put it in his party manifesto in 2015.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:16 pm

You can call it or take issue with it as you like. Call me a “metropolitan elite” if you will, it doesn’t change the facts. I’m not saying it’s perfect. Perhaps it “ought to be” the way you say it is, M_E, but it’s not.

I’m just telling you what it actually is. You made an assertion that was wrong, I corrected it.

Because people should know this stuff. Again, it’s pretty basic. Here’s the EB quote that sets it out:

...Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own ... Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.


We can sit and talk about the constitution and pillars, and democracy and the entire bedrock of our governing way of life - that’s fine. I make no comment on whether it *should* or should not be direct or representative democracy, I’m just telling you what *is*. Because you said it was something that it wasn’t.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:19 pm

starbuck wrote:
Finally (for now) I did smile at your request to stop using poker analogies and then proceed to use a new one that I hadn't seen mentioned anywhere before about the UK not affording the blind. :lol:


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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:22 pm

starbuck wrote: My point was that it is a fundamental position in a negotiation.


It’s not though.

And even if it was, it’s not a “de facto” argument of anything or whatever MiG_Eater said.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:25 pm

Remarkable that BJ losing the case in the Scots courts is now the second headline, over taken by Yellowhammer,

just too much news at the moment...and all bad from BJs perspective
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:39 pm

Tommy wrote:
starbuck wrote: My point was that it is a fundamental position in a negotiation.


It’s not though.


We will have to agree to disagree on that one. What I would say is that its effectiveness in a negotiation is a variable depending on the strength of the parties positions. And for HMG to be using it now is futile. Ironically Cameron used it as a tactic quite effectively during the european summits during 2013 - 2014 when he requested concessions from the EU to existing agreements because of the rise of UKIP. Concessions that the EU agreed to that made the deal we have on the table now look paltry by comparison.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:42 pm

pbeardmore wrote:Remarkable that BJ losing the case in the Scots courts is now the second headline, over taken by Yellowhammer,

just too much news at the moment...and all bad from BJs perspective


Equally remarkable to me is that as our present government is a complete failure the opportunity presents itself yet again for Labour to put one into an empty net and yet again they seem just as hell bent on self destruction and internal civil war as the tories.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:48 pm

Yes, fair point. I think Labour can smell power (after many years) and perhaps some panic may set in. What is Watson thinking of?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 11:09 pm

Yellowhammer makes for some interesting reading.

The spin the government are putting on it too....

Tonight this document is supposedly a reasonable worst case scenario. However Rosamund Urwin of the Sunday Times has stated tonight that this is the same document as was leaked to her a few weeks ago which stated that it was the base most likely scenario.

Some of the points of the document.....

Food price rises and reduced supply affecting the poorest most.

Fuel price increases.

Lorries taking up to 2 days to cross the Channel.

Massive traffic jams across Kent backing up from the Channel reaching/affecting the Dartford Crossing.

Fuel supply issues for London and the South East as a result of said traffic jam restricting deliveries.

Panic fuel purchase in the rest of the country causing further supply issues.

Medicine shortages for 6 months potentially putting lives at risk. 75% of supplies come in via the Channel.

Some Adult Social Care services failing.

Protesting

Panic Buying

Fishing boat clashes

Potential disease outbreaks.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby IATthenRIAT on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 4:36 am

boff180 wrote:Yellowhammer makes for some interesting reading.

The spin the government are putting on it too....

Tonight this document is supposedly a reasonable worst case scenario. However Rosamund Urwin of the Sunday Times has stated tonight that this is the same document as was leaked to her a few weeks ago which stated that it was the base most likely scenario.

Some of the points of the document.....

Food price rises and reduced supply affecting the poorest most.

Fuel price increases.

Lorries taking up to 2 days to cross the Channel.

Massive traffic jams across Kent backing up from the Channel reaching/affecting the Dartford Crossing.

Fuel supply issues for London and the South East as a result of said traffic jam restricting deliveries.

Panic fuel purchase in the rest of the country causing further supply issues.

Medicine shortages for 6 months potentially putting lives at risk. 75% of supplies come in via the Channel.

Some Adult Social Care services failing.

Protesting

Panic Buying

Fishing boat clashes

Potential disease outbreaks.


I'm not happy with that and dont want it - anybody else feel the same.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 5:42 am

I can't imagine anyone else doesn't feel the same. Who would actually want "Some Adult Social Care services failings" after all?

To be fair to this government (and that's not something I thought I'd every say) this is of course the worst case scenario. They'd probably be in even more do-do if stuff happened and they hadn't foreseen it (or at least hadn't told us they had).

Anyway, that's enough of defending the idiots... Here's hoping the Supreme Court agree with the Scottish judges next week!
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 7:00 am

boff180 wrote:Lorries taking up to 2 days to cross the Channel.

Whilst technology has improved & most - if not all - procedures are computerised, the amount of freight traffic has markedly increased over the years.
Anyone old enough to have travelled to and from Europe in the '70s & '80s will recall the compounds outside of ports such as Zeebrugge full of Eastern European lorries waiting to clear Customs to enter the UK. Forget days....those lorries were often there for weeks.
With UK-registered & other Western European vehicles whilst freight clearance often 'only' took about 4-6 hours ( and that's with it being 'pre-cleared' by the Shipping Agents' ) you could still find yourselves sitting in the Port area for several days waiting for some loads to clear, not to mention having to wait hours or even days if you were unlucky enough to be one of those selected by Customs for a 'random' search.
If you've ever experienced it, no right-minded person would want a return to those days.

Medicine shortages for 6 months potentially putting lives at risk. 75% of supplies come in via the Channel.

Not just medicines, also things like radioactive isotopes.
There are already those who are saying the RAF could be used to bring in essential medicines and isotopes!
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 7:25 am

CJS wrote:
To be fair to this government (and that's not something I thought I'd every say) this is of course the worst case scenario.


They’ve lied about that, too:

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 8:48 am

However, ministers blocked the release of communications between No 10 aides about Parliament's suspension.

Mr Gove said MPs' request to see e-mails, texts and WhatsApp messages from Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson's chief aide, and eight other advisers in Downing Street were "unreasonable and disproportionate".

Publishing the information, he added, would "contravene the law" and "offend against basic principles of fairness".


Err...they're between Government Officials/employees pertaining to Government policies/business.
It's not as if they're between random mates discussing what they're doing on the weekend or how they got on with the bloke/bird they pulled at a nightclub !

Can't think why, but you get the impression Gove & co have something to hide..... :whistle:


Oh, and you'd have thought that the gob-on-a-stick rabid fundamentalist Kwasi Kwarteng would have learnt to keep his opinions to himself by now, but clearly not :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901
:roll:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 9:37 am

PMBJ's denied that he lied to the Queen, then.

Edited to add....
Government say they're going to release an updated version of 'Yellowhammer'..... I didn't know Hansard had a fiction' section. :lol:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 11:27 am

Ye gods!
Watching 'Politics Live' now......Martin Daubney ( Brexit Party MEP )...the tosser's claiming that Judges are all 'Remainers' hell-bent on stopping Brexit. :facepalm:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby iainpeden on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 11:36 am

Brevet Cable wrote:Ye gods!
Watching 'Politics Live' now......Martin Daubney ( Brexit Party MEP )...the tosser's claiming that Judges are all 'Remainers' hell-bent on stopping Brexit. :facepalm:

I’m watching the cricket; currently better for my blood pressure.
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