COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

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Zoom
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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Zoom »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat 04 Dec 2021, 3:12 pm
The government's strategy of herd immunity now looks precarious, hence their nervousness. If Omicron takes no notice of previous immunity and reinfects, then we have to go through the whole thing again.

There's been talk that Omicron is not (or not as) deadly although there isn't enough data yet, if it does turn out to be the Holy Grail that scientists thought would eventually evolve the big question is will it replace Alpha or just exist alongside it with possible dual infections?

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by iainpeden »

Be interesting to find out which variant the two hippos at Antwerp zoo have caught?
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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by harkins »

We are completely back to the start really. Vaccines are increasingly looking to be ineffective, so the scientists have to start again. Optimistically 12 months to get 65% of the population single jabbed with a new vaccine? But will it evolve to beat it again?

It’s a biological arms race, but unlike the cold war arms race, coronavirus isn’t going to run out of money like the Soviets did. We might though.

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harkins
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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by harkins »

I reckon the F-35 will be a warbird by the next RIAT to go ahead.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by boff180 »

We're just going to end up with an annual jab for the vulnerable and front line staff the same as the Flu.

Right now we don't know how ineffective the vaccines are or how dangerous the strain is. All we know is it appears to be more infectious and it seems to be more susceptible to re-infection.

The concentration by the media on a large proportion of the UK cases being double jabbed means nothing. As has been said to the death, a vaccine doesn't stop you catching it.

The two sensible things they should do now in the run up to Christmas is advise work from home and enforce masks everywhere.... it's daft to say wear a mask in a shop but not anywhere else.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Tommy »

harkins wrote:
Sat 04 Dec 2021, 7:34 pm
Vaccines are increasingly looking to be ineffective, so the scientists have to start again.
Are they? I thought (as Zoom has highlighted) that the initial tentative data was quite positive in terms of vaccine effectiveness. As has been rightly said, much more data is needed eitherway, but as of right now, things are looking ok on the vaccine front, aren’t they?

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by cg_341 »

Ok if you're happy to have more and more "boosters" at unknown and increasingly common intervals.

That's not sustainable.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by boff180 »

The only thing I've seen so far is Pfeizer saying they believed there wouldn't be an issue with their vaccine but I don't think there is any real world data yet.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

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I’ve just been hearing in the news today that re-infection is being seen and that this is a sign that immunity through previous infection and vaccines is reduced. Another scientist has said that our progress has been squandered. I don’t write these articles, but the news is certainly giving me the feeling that we’re right back in the excrement. And I feel it’s not just me as people I know are already either changing plans or preparing to as they are fearful of conditions pushing us back into lockdown or close to. I know we’re nearly all bored of Covid, but unfortunately that doesn’t mean it’s over, no matter how much we wish it was.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by 8674planes »

The vaccine effectiveness against new variations of Covid is an interesting topic. There's thinking that Covid mutations draw some parallels to that of Antibiotic resistance against bacterial infections in which resistance occurs when bacteria change in response to the use of these medicines. Obviously research is still ongoing but it does make me wonder if vaccinating/boosting an otherwise healthy people could potentially cause more harm than good when it comes to future variants, and the added sustainability of developing new vaccines and vaccinating perhaps billions of people every year.

I'm starting to wonder if the best course of action in the long term is a mixture of herd immunity through natural antibodies and over-the-counter anti virals for those with serious illness.
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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by FarnboroJohn »

harkins wrote:
Sun 05 Dec 2021, 12:46 am
I’ve just been hearing in the news today that re-infection is being seen and that this is a sign that immunity through previous infection and vaccines is reduced. Another scientist has said that our progress has been squandered. I don’t write these articles, but the news is certainly giving me the feeling that we’re right back in the excrement. And I feel it’s not just me as people I know are already either changing plans or preparing to as they are fearful of conditions pushing us back into lockdown or close to. I know we’re nearly all bored of Covid, but unfortunately that doesn’t mean it’s over, no matter how much we wish it was.
You don't need "immunity" unless you are reinfected. The whole point of vaccination is that when you are reinfected you (a) survive and (b) suffer less serious illness. This whole thing about reinfection is a red herring.

You may or may not have noticed that with every variant identified, the same message that this might evade the vaccines has been deployed. So far (I'll go that far in their direction) none of them have, and the initial report from South Africa identified that the vaccinated part of the population - equals the affluent part - with Omicron was presenting with mild illness.

So frankly what I am hearing is "Wolf, wolf" - and I've heard it too many times.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by farnboroughrob »

We do seem to live in a world where the media love to stoke fear about Covid, it is the best story they have ever had after all. We have a large percentage of the population scared and who will gladly take lockdowns. You also have another growing part who have gone all 'Brexit' on it, so don't really care about the experts just want back control of their lives no matter what.
As we are going to enter of third year of Covid we need a conversation on how long we can threatern lockdowns and big restrictions on peoples lives? They will not make Covid go away, they don't work. Would it not be better now to raise tax (particually fair tax on large corporations) and put massive investment into the NHS so it can cope with Covid and everything else in the long term? Of course the problem with the UK is an inept govenment who would sell their granny and they lie through their teeth about it.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Tommy »

I completely get your POV - we’re all exhausted.

However, it’s worth gently saying that no one, really, “wants” lockdown. There may be a minority of people who don’t mind lockdowns, but I don’t think that anyone (or hardly anyone), really, *wants* a lockdown.

And they do work. To say that they don’t work is incorrect. In fact, before the vaccine, they were, really, one of the only things that worked to bring cases, hospitalisations, and deaths down. Perhaps my memory is farting this morning, but I’m unable to think of anything else that brought cases and hospitalisations and deaths down. Certainly not the eye-watering ly expensive test and trace failure, certainly not the stupid garbage “tier system” of last autumn/winter. Though, to be fair, those things may not have worked because of government incompetence, rather than the ideas themselves.

But anyway, be careful not to dismiss them as ineffective just because you (and the rest of us) hate them.

Again though - we’re talking about lockdowns prematurely, to my knowledge no-one, not even scientists, are currently advocating for lockdowns, are they?

I know you hate them, so do I. So does everyone else, I think, but unless I’m much mistaken, no one (official) is seriously proposing one, are they?

Now that we have received a vaccine & are getting boosters, is there even a case for lockdowns?

The case rate seems to be resting on about 300k new cases a week, but deaths are at about 800 per week (still too high if you ask me, but others will disagree).

When we had this many positive cases back in the January peak (circa 350-400k cases per week) before the vaccines, deaths were almost 10,000 per week.

The difference in terms of the number of cases and deaths is almost night and day, and that’s all down to the vaccine cutting that link.

Crucially, now that the booster jabs are being rolled out (and again, to toot my own horn - for which I do apologise - but I was calling for them to be given sooner than six months back in early Oct), cases and deaths are dropping quite significantly.

So is there even a case for lockdowns anymore? In my opinion, not. And unless Omicron is significantly resistant to vaccines (and initial tentative findings are that it isn’t - but obvs we must wait for more data), then I’m not sure the new variant will change that.

Unfortunately, all we can do is wait and see, but let’s look after our own mental health and avoid worrying about things like lockdowns at a time when no one serious is currently proposing them.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Ken Shabby »

It doesn’t help when the experts at Imperial College, within a few days of the new variant being discovered, are describing it as “horrific”. Granted it was balanced with a statement that we don’t know whether it will cause serious illness, but the “horrific” word was out there and the media lapped it up.

Would a newly-discovered variant of any other infection have been described as such when it’s effects were still unknown? I very much doubt it.

But as Farnborough John says, Covid is the best story the media’s had for years and the health experts, normally closeted away out of view, are enjoying their 15 minutes of fame and are determined to make the most of it.
Ken

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Much as we'd like it, we're not near the end. Saying "I want to go to the pub and have my old life back" to a virus has the same effect as King Cnut had on the waves.

UK’s progress on Covid now squandered, warns top scientist
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -scientist
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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by farnboroughrob »

I am hearing people I know saying they are scared and want a lockdown of sorts with pubs etc closed. Lots of talk on the BBC this last week on should Christmas parties be cancelled etc. The seed is starting to be sown. Lockdowns work in the short term, but you can only have so many before people start to ignore them as I will. I have seen Covid, or the aftermarth of it, claim my dads life, but I am not scared of Covid.
It is all about managing the risk, same with anything in life. I currently have a much greater risk of having a catastrophitic mental breakdown than I do of dying of Covid. Some people I know thrived in the lockdowns while on furlough, or working from home but many didn't. I have a friend who is now scared to leave the house and suffers from massive anxiety due to lockdowns. We need some balance, it has to not just be about Covid. I hate this govenment but I am so glad they have not dived into to lockdown, or talking of mandatory vaccinations (i have had my 3) like some in Europe have.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

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Ken Shabby wrote:
Sun 05 Dec 2021, 9:59 am
But as Farnborough John says, Covid is the best story the media’s had for years and the health experts, normally closeted away out of view, are enjoying their 15 minutes of fame and are determined to make the most of it.
Agree to the first part, absolutely. Disagree with to the second, generally.

I’m sure there are one or two “consultants” out there trying to make bank from appearing on the news, but in general, health experts aren’t MPs. They didn’t get into that career because they wanted to be on TV talking about a deadly pandemic. The majority of them aren’t seeking the limelight, and I daresay that the majority of them actually quietly want to go back to whatever they were working on, rather than burning themselves out dealing with COVID and all its manifestations.

Quite a lot, as you’ve alluded to, their scientific comments are misconstrued by the press into something that they aren’t.

It’s amazing how we, as a nation, went so quickly from clapping the NHS, health experts and key workers every Thursday to suddenly demonising the same people because they’re using their training and expertise to tell us facts that lay people don’t want to hear.

We must be careful not to let such rot set in.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Ken Shabby »

Tommy wrote:
Sun 05 Dec 2021, 11:41 am
Ken Shabby wrote:
Sun 05 Dec 2021, 9:59 am
But as Farnborough John says, Covid is the best story the media’s had for years and the health experts, normally closeted away out of view, are enjoying their 15 minutes of fame and are determined to make the most of it.
Agree to the first part, absolutely. Disagree with to the second, generally.

I’m sure there are one or two “consultants” out there trying to make bank from appearing on the news, but in general, health experts aren’t MPs. They didn’t get into that career because they wanted to be on TV talking about a deadly pandemic. The majority of them aren’t seeking the limelight, and I daresay that the majority of them actually quietly want to go back to whatever they were working on, rather than burning themselves out dealing with COVID and all its manifestations.

Quite a lot, as you’ve alluded to, their scientific comments are misconstrued by the press into something that they aren’t.

It’s amazing how we, as a nation, went so quickly from clapping the NHS, health experts and key workers every Thursday to suddenly demonising the same people because they’re using their training and expertise to tell us facts that lay people don’t want to hear.

We must be careful not to let such rot set in.
With the exception of those holding Government-funded positions, no one’s forcing them to come out with public statements - but they continue to do so.

And some of the language they use is irresponsible given their position and it’s context. For a SAGE member to put the “horrific” comment into the public domain, with hardly any scientific evidence to back it up, was borderline scaremongering.

It’s no wonder people have stopped clapping them. If they want to continue to be considered experts, they should lay off the soundbites. Leave that to the politicians and press - we already know not to trust them.
Ken

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by rockfordstone »

cg_341 wrote:
Sat 04 Dec 2021, 9:03 pm
Ok if you're happy to have more and more "boosters" at unknown and increasingly common intervals.

That's not sustainable.
that's literally how the flu jab works, the only difference being they have far more data on strains because it has been happening for years. in time, covid will become part of the annual flu jab for the vulnerable but at the moment we have to fight the fire.

as it happens, the wife has been suffering from covid all this past week and now it looks like i also have it. it's not pleasant

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Pen Pusher »

Dr Angelique Coetzee, chair of the South African Medical Association, provided the first significant progression update.

She told the Reuters news agency that she received seven patients with the variant on November 18.

In her experience, she said, most of those catching the disease are aged 40 or younger.

But their symptoms haven't sparked much concern, as Dr Coetzee noted most have been mild so far.

She said the "most predominant clinical complaint" was "fatigue for one or two days".

Headaches and bodily aches and pains accompanied them, and signs "related to normal viral infection".

Although there is little concern amongst adults right now, the NICD has noted rising hospitalisation rates amongst infants aged under two.
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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Incidentally, though in a way it doesn't matter as I agree with him, the statement being discussed was by Rob, not me. Credit where its due.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Zoom »

The scientist who said today that we have "squandered" progress on Covid is not quite on the money.

We have ground breaking vaccines which are reducing hospitalisations and deaths (in the countries that have administered enough of them) And we have one new variant about which very little is know with regards infectivity and morbidity, it might not even be from a human source (rats has been postulated).

And we all know very well how to contain viruses if the above fail...

why has no-one mentioned Partygate?
Last edited by Zoom on Sun 05 Dec 2021, 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by iainpeden »

Zoom wrote:
Sun 05 Dec 2021, 8:35 pm

We have ground breaking vaccines which are reducing hospitalisations and deaths (in the countries that have administered enough of them) And we have one new variant about which very little is know with regards infectivity and morbidity, it might not even be from a human source.
90% of people in intensive care are unvaccinated; a statistic which should persuade all but the ardent anti-vaxxers to get jabbed. (Just for the record I'll accept there are some people who for health grounds cannot be jabbed).
These are the people holding up cancer care, emergency operations etc.

So how longer before the UK joins with others in compulsory vaccination, much stricter controls on the unvaccinated or charging for covid care for the unjabbed.
As Spock said (Mr not Dr) "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the Few."
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Tommy
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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by Tommy »

Compulsory vaccination (which, though I’m happy to be persuaded otherwise, I currently see no problem with in principle) ought to do away with any other restrictions on the unvaccinated as anyone left unjabbed has already been punished for that crime (or would be exempt on medical grounds).

I’m far, far more supportive of the idea of compulsory jabs that anything like vaccine passports, paying for treatment (you’ve mentioned this before and that’s a particularly dangerous - and illogical - path to take), or anything else.

Personally, until many many more countries enforce compulsory jabs, I don’t think Johnson has the will nor the courage to make them compulsory.

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Re: COVID-19: Your Thoughts and it's effects on you.

Post by jasonT1981 »

Zoom wrote:
Sun 05 Dec 2021, 8:35 pm


why has no-one mentioned Partygate?
Because both Police and Raab say it is not the job of Police to retrospectively investigate past crimes. It's a nothing to see here type job and just another example of how they can get away with whatever they want, contrary to the rules without any actual accountability for their actions.





Also, Boris is planning (apparently) to let MPs throw out any legal ruling they don't like according to the times



And nothing will ever be done about it.

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