RIAT 2023 wish list

All you'll ever need to know about the UK's biggest airshow
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Tommy
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Tommy »

I’ll tell you what was quite stark, and this is more aimed at the RAF than RIAT - after a six year break from doing foreign airshows and going to the Danish airshow in June was just how much effort the home team put into the event.

In terms of the flying, in addition to the Danish F-16 solo (and other items such as a helicopter assault), we were treated to a nine ship F-16 formation, which flew overhead in a diamond, disappeared for 20 minutes whilst something else was on, then suddenly appeared from all different directions in a quite spectacular low level airfield “attack”, and then each of the nine ship did various missed approaches and flypasts before going home. Not much, but brilliant. The noise, the excitement, the “where do I even look!” feeling.

It wasn’t much - but that theatre of the air element, that vibe of the Danes genuinely enjoying the opportunity to show off their cool jets is something that the RAF just don’t quite get these days.

Now, yeah, I get that RIAT isn’t technically an RAF show, but then again the RAF treat it as a priority ahead of Cosford (and previously Waddo/Leuchars) - the RAF100 celebrations were at RIAT, likewise most type debuts are at RIAT.

So I guess the point I’m trying to make is that my wish is that the RAF “that’ll do-ism” attitude ends. I’m not rehashing comments in the review re covers and stuff, but and end to the sort of energy you get from higher up “send the typhoon demo, Reds, Chinook, BBMF. That’ll do.”

Is there no, I don’t know, unique airfield assault a handful of Chinooks can do with one or two AAC Apaches circling overhead? Can a trio of Typhoons perform a surprise “tactical” attack on the airfield? Can an A400 drop off a vehicle to rescue someone and have it be picked up by a Chinook?

Is there absolutely nothing, in all the immense tactical capability of the Royal Air Force, they can do that isn’t the same old solo display?

One of the USPs of Yeovilton was precisely that - the Navy and Royal Marines always felt excited to show you their toys, and the helicopter assault was always great. And all they really did was fly orbits dropping off some troops and some kit and picking them up again. But their number (and how well choreographed it was) made it an awesome spectacle.

It’s not to denigrate from the demo teams - they’re great, but that element of theatre has long been missing from the RAF higher ups. Perhaps a return of sorts of the old RAF role demo. But something, anything, above and beyond the by-the-numbers solo displays doing (very competently) the same manoeuvres we’ve seen many times before.

verreli
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by verreli »

Agree with all that Tommy and you have some good ideas in your post too. Unfortunately the RAF prefer to celebrate their anniversary with a gardening display and marching which says everything you need to know about their current management. I hold precisely zero hope of any near term improvement. It's a surprise their senior management had any interest in aviation, let alone used to be pilots. I even get the sense that without Boris the current RAF specials just wouldn't have happened. This is a wish list. I wish the RAF would have a change of attitude, put a bit of effort and pride into promoting their service and turn up at the next RIAT with something that will prove me wrong.
Last edited by verreli on Fri 05 Aug 2022, 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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iainpeden
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by iainpeden »

Tommy, you’re preaching to the converted on that one and I couldn’t agree more; maybe one of the “issues” is that many displays are seaside based and therefore a set piece would not have so much impact. Essentially we have only 2 airfield based shows now which would cater for such an extravaganza rather than the days when I could do 8 shows a year within 3 hours of home
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Bodz156
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Bodz156 »

Another in agreement in regards the RAF's 'that'll do' approach to public relations. Someone (a bean-counter probably) seems to believe the occasional TV advertising campaign is what inspires young people to want to join the force....having attended 'Luchtmachtdagen' in 2016 I can say that what the RNLAF (a smaller force!) did there was much more inspiring than any TV advert I've ever seen. If they can do it, so can the RAF...but they choose not to.

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Tommy
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Tommy »

A Bulgarian Su-25 or MiG-29 (if they haven’t all been donated) wouldn’t go amiss either.

I think the former came close to attending a couple of years ago.

Mike
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Mike »

bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:57 am
Polish hinds don't even fly in Poland...They are getting replaced by either AH-64s or the Viper + UH-1Y Venom combo (Czech Republic chose this option).
Isn't that (at least partially) what the AW149 buy is intended for?

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Tommy
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Tommy »

I thought so too, but to be honest, it’s hard to keep track. Polish procurement has taken a very Middle Eastern approach at the moment (eg buy/express an interest in everything)

Professor_M
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Professor_M »

From France, a C-135FR (they can't have much longer left with the A330 coming into service), please, as well as Mirage 2000B and 2000D, C-160 and Sentry. The EC725 Caracal special forces demo (as seen at Cognac this year) or the A400M Tactical display would be great additions too.
From the navy, something other than the Xingu would be nice - but especially the Hawkeye or Atlantique display - any of the helicopters or business jets would be welcome in the static display.
Anything from the French Army would be good to see - but especially the Tigre and the Puma and Cougar before they get replaced by the NH90.
A Sécurité Civile water-bomber would be different - but they will probably be quite busy in the middle of summer.
With Bastille Day falling on the Friday of RIAT next year, I might be asking for too much here - but perhaps they could make the main Weekend days.

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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by bobby 1211 »

Mike wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 9:16 am
bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:57 am
Polish hinds don't even fly in Poland...They are getting replaced by either AH-64s or the Viper + UH-1Y Venom combo (Czech Republic chose this option).
Isn't that (at least partially) what the AW149 buy is intended for?
The AW149 will have the following roles in the Polish army:
  • combat support/advanced training
  • command
  • reconnaissance and EW.
The Mi-24 replacement must be an attack helicopter, so the AW149 can't take on that role. With the Czech Republic already operating the Viper I hope Poland buys the Apache.

I've also just had glance what aircraft the Polish Navy has in service. The seasprite is getting replaced in the next few years and the anti-sub version of the Mi-14 is being replaced by Merlins next year, just after RIAT. I am sure a mi-14 would be a highlight of the show.

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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by cg_341 »

bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:57 am
Polish hinds don't even fly in Poland (unless its to keep the pilots certified) :D the government has no ammunition for them since about 2016.
Must have been a lot of certification going on at Inowroclaw when I visited in 2018 then.

Professor_M
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Professor_M »

bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:05 pm
I've also just had glance what aircraft the Polish Navy has in service. The seasprite is getting replaced in the next few years and the anti-sub version of the Mi-14 is being replaced by Merlins next year, just after RIAT. I am sure a mi-14 would be a highlight of the show.
I have to agree - Polish Navy Mi-14 (or Seasprite) must be at the top of the types we don't have much longer left to see so would be great at RIAT next year list. (An Mi-2 or W-3 would also be good to see - but the Mi-14 making its final appearance must be top of the Wishlist from the polish navy.)

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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by bobby 1211 »

cg_341 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:20 pm
bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:57 am
Polish hinds don't even fly in Poland (unless its to keep the pilots certified) :D the government has no ammunition for them since about 2016.
Must have been a lot of certification going on at Inowroclaw when I visited in 2018 then.
Yeah, or training missions without the use of anti tank rockets. They still have their cannons and S-5 rockets but those are used for attacking ground targets which is not really what Poland need. The information about the lack on ammunition came out in October 2016 and it says this has been the case for the last 4 years (2012), this means the Polish Mi-24 are toothless and useless. Now its 2022 and most of them have reached or about to reach the maximum airframe lifespan.

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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Mike »

I think a trip to Radom next August is called for, before all the Soviet-era hardware disappears

bobby 1211
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by bobby 1211 »

I am planning to attend Swidwin open day (SU-22 base) which is always on the first Saturday of July and then go to Radom which is meant to be bigger than usual as its a comeback show.
At RIAT we might get a Polish Merlin as one is due to be delivered in June/July 2023

Professor_M
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Professor_M »

bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 1:28 pm
At RIAT we might get a Polish Merlin as one is due to be delivered in June/July 2023
The merlin would be good to see parked up next to the Mi-14 it replaces.

Professor_M
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by Professor_M »

bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:47 pm
cg_341 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:20 pm
bobby 1211 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 12:57 am
Polish hinds don't even fly in Poland (unless its to keep the pilots certified) :D the government has no ammunition for them since about 2016.
Must have been a lot of certification going on at Inowroclaw when I visited in 2018 then.
Yeah, or training missions without the use of anti tank rockets. They still have their cannons and S-5 rockets but those are used for attacking ground targets which is not really what Poland need. The information about the lack on ammunition came out in October 2016 and it says this has been the case for the last 4 years (2012), this means the Polish Mi-24 are toothless and useless. Now its 2022 and most of them have reached or about to reach the maximum airframe lifespan.
When did the Polish Land Forces last participate at RIAT (I seem to remember they were listed as yellow for some time on the traffic light system this year but that came to nothing sadly)? An Mi-24, Mi-2, Mi-8/17 or W-3 would be great Soviet-era legacy helicopter types to see at RIAT before they're gone from Polish service.

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aviodromefriend
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by aviodromefriend »

Tommy wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 7:00 am
So I guess the point I’m trying to make is that my wish is that the RAF “that’ll do-ism” attitude ends. I’m not rehashing comments in the review re covers and stuff, but and end to the sort of energy you get from higher up “send the typhoon demo, Reds, Chinook, BBMF. That’ll do.”
I wish the RAF participation commitee will be binned and its job delegated into the hands of DBH. May save a few Pounds in the proces to.
Bodz156 wrote:
Fri 05 Aug 2022, 7:27 am
having attended 'Luchtmachtdagen' in 2016 I can say that what the RNLAF (a smaller force!) did there was much more inspiring than any TV advert I've ever seen.
And that wasn't the best Airpowerdemo in history, actually, one of the weakest (due to a change of command ceremony on the friday) since it replaced the 16+ F-16 mass take-off, formation and base attack.
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OscarM
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Re: RIAT 2023 wish list

Post by OscarM »

Having attended several Luchtmachtdagen with an Air Power Demo, I can say it was always a great and spectactular show off force!! 16 F-16's taking off in short time, performing an airfield attack. Followed by apache attack helis, chinooks, cougars and C-130's.
Would love to see it at RIAT performer by the RAF (or a mix of NATO partners)!