Cosford changes

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum
User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3730
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Cosford changes

Post by iainpeden »

The rejigging at Cosford has already been covered.
I was there yesterday and a staff member said the experimental aircraft are starting to be moved in September and advised to visit soon if you want those them. He thought the TSR.2 and EAP were staying but wasn’t sure.(And plans change anyway.)
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

User avatar
cometguymk1
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon 04 Nov 2019, 8:30 am

Re: Cosford changes

Post by cometguymk1 »

Always found the Cosford collections a little disjointed except the Experimental and cold war.

DOUGHNUT
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat 21 Mar 2009, 2:49 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by DOUGHNUT »

Trying hard to be positive about the proposed changes to RAFM Cosford but it does not sound good for aviation enthusiasts.

www.rafmuseum.org.uk/support-us/introdu ... programme/

Seems like same team who managed to change Hendon are at work here. Only good news could be the new storage building adjacent to the restoration hangar. Sadly I fear that will end up like Yeovilton with the less popular aircraft dismantled out of sight. It is now clear why the disposal list was written, Argosy out the hangar, STEM and childrens play area in.

5944
Posts: 515
Joined: Wed 21 Aug 2013, 7:40 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by 5944 »

DOUGHNUT wrote:
Mon 08 Aug 2022, 4:16 pm
Trying hard to be positive about the proposed changes to RAFM Cosford but it does not sound good for aviation enthusiasts.

www.rafmuseum.org.uk/support-us/introdu ... programme/

Seems like same team who managed to change Hendon are at work here. Only good news could be the new storage building adjacent to the restoration hangar. Sadly I fear that will end up like Yeovilton with the less popular aircraft dismantled out of sight. It is now clear why the disposal list was written, Argosy out the hangar, STEM and childrens play area in.
It could be worse - look at the National Railway Museum in York. The decent, very well equipped workshop with viewing gallery has been closed to make way for Wonderlab, an interactive STEM experience. Absolutely nothing to do with railways. There seem to be more cafes than locos there these days. Fully operational locos that were being looked after by other groups are now tucked away, never to run again. I realise museums are about conservation, but they've gone too far. And now they're spending £16m to build a new building linking the two halves of the site, and annoying the locals in the process.

Mike
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by Mike »

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/ ... ersion.pdf

So basically turning both sites into kids’ playgrounds

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 9401
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by Tommy »

Gotta say, a complete side point, but that “INSPIRE” acronym on p.10 is gonna give me nightmares, man. 😂

User avatar
toom317
UKAR Supporter
Posts: 2012
Joined: Tue 02 Sep 2008, 11:02 am

Re: Cosford changes

Post by toom317 »

Yeh, but if your playing Wanque Word Bingo, it's great fun.
"Nice pics mate" comments only! No criticism please.

Equipment: Camera, Lens, Goretex Y fronts.

User avatar
8674planes
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat 15 Oct 2011, 11:44 am
Location: Essex

Re: Cosford changes

Post by 8674planes »

Mike wrote:
Mon 08 Aug 2022, 5:58 pm
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/ ... ersion.pdf

So basically turning both sites into kids’ playgrounds
If you do a word search in that document there are zero results for 'aircraft' and just 1 'aviation' mentioned.

Kermit Weeks uploaded a visit video to the Kalamazoo Air Museum to his YouTube a few days ago, a majority of the visitors were just queuing up for rides and attractions with barely anyone actually taking an interest in the aircraft on display. I guess that's where most museums are heading to bring in the visitor numbers.
"radial engines don't drip oil, they mark their territory"

Mike
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by Mike »

There are no pictures of aircraft in the report either

User avatar
Cole
Posts: 897
Joined: Sat 09 Apr 2016, 2:43 pm
Location: Dudley, West Midlands

Re: Cosford changes

Post by Cole »

Why are all the pictures pixelated. could have done better with MS Paint.

Surely they realise how full of useless buzzwords that is..
Canon 800D & Sigma 150-600 C
Dudley, West Midlands

Shows I'm Attending in 2020:

Well Um..

User avatar
phreakf4
Posts: 2821
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 9:42 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by phreakf4 »

No, they are probably quite proud to have used that many buzzwords.....
nothing is confirmed at a show until its u/c hits the tarmac or it is running in for its display.....

User avatar
TEXANTOMCAT
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat 09 Aug 2014, 5:40 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by TEXANTOMCAT »

As a long term member of an aviation museum there is no doubt that museums I or perhaps we like- that is ‘museums of stuff’ especially airframes are no longer in vogue.

Now museums have to be ‘destinations’ with emphasis on family and by extension- children- interaction (or entertainment). It’s just the way things are.

We learnt from the excellent Jet Age Museum who have a whole load of cockpit available for children and adults to try out in addition to airframes, information. Memorabilia etc.

We had a Chippax on show which we weren’t using- we moved that to permit child access and it revolutionised our income and attendance numbers as families would now have something to do- and in this current age a very important consideration- a good photo opportunity.

Truth is that times are a changing folks - I/we may not agree with it but it’s the modern world. I can’t pretend to even understand some of the RAFM decisions but we will see more of it mark you. Though some changes are to be welcomed there is a risk of irreversible disposals which for a National collection has consequences for future generations.

The science museum haven’t updated the flight gallery in 30 years- they seem keen to dispose of aircraft from Wroughton. Both IWM and RAFM are getting rid of airframes and so on

TT

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3730
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Cosford changes

Post by iainpeden »

Good points TT.
Beyond the need to become destinations I wonder how much corrosion is focussing thoughts on airframe disposal; I have read the reason Yeovilton had put the restored Phantom up for sale is the corrosion which needs treating.

With regards to the Science Museum in London, I reckon you could add 20 years to your dating - it’s hardly changed since I first went there. And thank goodness, the removal of the beautiful ships gallery and replacement with non working computer cases was sheer vandalism.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

farnboroughrob
Posts: 2118
Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009, 8:31 am

Re: Cosford changes

Post by farnboroughrob »

I am afraid we are no longer the RAFM, or many other museums , target audience. We are, probably, largely white males over the ago of 40, we no longer really matter. Its now all about visitor numbers and showing diversity in those visitors to tick boxes. A coach load of RAF veterans in their 70's and 80's turning up should IMHO be treated as gods, I wonder how they would be treated in reality? As the number of veterans, even from the 50's and 60's dies out so does much family interest sadly.

User avatar
TonyC
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat 02 Nov 2019, 3:01 pm
Location: Lost, if you find me, please let me know...

Re: Cosford changes

Post by TonyC »

I believe that I may have said this before but what they should do is close and sell Hendon, move the entire collection to Cosford and redevelop the site with the money made from the sale of Hendon!

There is enough space at Cosford, for the current airframes and artefacts from both sites, plus all these wonderful new ideas that the management keep coming up with, albeit maybe having to pinch some from the current 'live' airfield, whilst the addition of having the airfield would also allow an additional income from airshows (a new home for Flying Legends or its replacement?)!

As for the disposal of airframes and artefacts, apart from duplicates at both sights, any disposal is surely pure negligence and/or incompetence, on behalf of the management, regardless of how old the target audience is!

As for getting rid of certain airframes, like the Experimental and German airframes, how does that not fit in with the story of the RAF?

What has happened to all the medals that used to be on display at Hendon, how do these not tell the story of the RAF?

Most aircraft begin in the experimental stage so why is it OK to keep the Eurofighter EAF but not the Meteor Prone? OK the Prone proved to be a dead end but without it, lessons wouldn't be learned!

Similarly with Axis aircraft, these were operated by the RAF in the form of the Enemy Aircraft Flight (sorry forgotten the Flight No.) and are also equally relevant in telling the story of the RAF, or did World War 2 not exist?
Further, if these Axis aircraft are to be disposed, why not also dispose of the American aircraft, how do the B-17 and P-51D at Hendon, describe the story of the RAF?

Finally, I accept that the world is changing and audiences change, but the 'Story of the RAF' still needs the airframes, to put the subject into context but most of all, there is room both the physical and digital worlds, if the management are bright enough to use, what is already in their hands!

If only I were I multi billionaire, I'd buy the RAF Museum Collection in a heart beat but sadly that'll never happen :slight_smile:

PS

The above also relates to the railway world!
Last edited by TonyC on Mon 19 Dec 2022, 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
...and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in Space cos there's bugger all down here on Earth!

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 9401
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by Tommy »

I very much take the point that museums can be seen as “destinations” - but I wonder who actually worked out that “need” - I haven’t really seen evidence that a family won’t go to Cosford or any other museum because it doesn’t have the latest gadgets.

I also wonder whether the RAFM in Hendon or Cosford “need” to change to the same extent other museums who depend (in whole or in part) on revenue do. The RAFM is free to the public, notwithstanding parking at Cosford (not sure about Hendon). They don’t have the same commercial pressures private museums have.

It’s a good point about “non working computers” too - the pace of technology is such that these things seem to me to be quite maintenance heavy, rely on regular software updates, and after about 5-10 years look very dated and tacky. Like if you see interactive screens from something that was installed in 2004. None of that stuff is ever the highlight of the day. And it’s always a bit naff when you walk around a museum and you see a bunch of screens with a dusty “out of order” label on them. That’s to say nothing of the electricity/power they consume over an simple infoboard, which presumably increases costs.

I don’t know what the magic method is for museums - each has their own strategy, but I worry that the people in suits who get excited about corporate buzzwords and silly acronyms and artists impressions of kids being delighted with the latest high tech gadget (that’ll already be out of date before it’s installed) will greenlight stuff that is less engaging, more costly to keep updated, and stops working and ends up just clogging the place up.

There seems to be an awful lot of executives/managers/consultants with expensive salaries and very little evidence, telling everyone else, including the kids themselves, what kids want. There are points when it appears to be more about some suit who isn’t that interested in the subject matter, making dull and overly corporate speeches, flashy presentations, and cutting ribbons, than it does about the actual children/families/people who are interested in what the museum is about.

But then again - I’m not a curator or even a museum member of staff, so perhaps I’m just completely wrong. As usual.

It’s before my time, but was it always like this? Can anyone think of any major “latest super awesome proposal less about the aircraft and more about [corporate word of choice]!” in a museum from around 20 years ago that has stood the test of time? There must be a couple.

The most impressive projects seem to compliment the exhibits (such as the Cold War hangar, or the various developments at Duxford)

grahamh
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu 12 Nov 2020, 8:19 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by grahamh »

I was impressed with the Brooklands Aircraft Factory when I went back there earlier this year for the first time since the hangar move. A little bit tight for space in places but a nice mix of stories/displays, airframes and educational/STEM/interactive stuff. There were volunteers running hands-on stations for several classes of primary school kids, who seemed to be having a great time, but stuff like the metal-bending and design-a-plane screens appealed to my 13-year-old as well. I'd spend hours in a shed of old planes but the rest of my family doesn't feel the same way. It's only logical that museums seek to appeal to as wide a demographic as possible. The trick is to do it without forgetting what makes you special in the first place.

UKTopgun
UKAR Supporter
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sat 19 Dec 2009, 10:16 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by UKTopgun »

Not sure if it still exists but I thought the Fleet Air Arm museum carrier deck experience was brilliant for kids and adults alike. It presented airframes but in a very exciting and relevant context.

User avatar
Cole
Posts: 897
Joined: Sat 09 Apr 2016, 2:43 pm
Location: Dudley, West Midlands

Re: Cosford changes

Post by Cole »

is there any way to put a stop to the disposals. anyone know the contact details for the person in charge.. id like to give them an insight of what they are actually doing.
Canon 800D & Sigma 150-600 C
Dudley, West Midlands

Shows I'm Attending in 2020:

Well Um..

User avatar
aviationanoraks
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu 18 Feb 2010, 7:45 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Cosford changes

Post by aviationanoraks »

grahamh wrote:
Tue 09 Aug 2022, 6:14 pm
I was impressed with the Brooklands Aircraft Factory when I went back there earlier this year for the first time since the hangar move. A little bit tight for space in places but a nice mix of stories/displays, airframes and educational/STEM/interactive stuff. There were volunteers running hands-on stations for several classes of primary school kids, who seemed to be having a great time, but stuff like the metal-bending and design-a-plane screens appealed to my 13-year-old as well. I'd spend hours in a shed of old planes but the rest of my family doesn't feel the same way. It's only logical that museums seek to appeal to as wide a demographic as possible. The trick is to do it without forgetting what makes you special in the first place.
I totally agree with this.
We visited Brooklands late last year and were mightily impressed with the aircraft factory.
It gave adults and children the opportunity to see, feel and learn about aircraft construction over the last century.
Not only that, aircraft that had previously been outside were now safely under cover and incorporated into the displays, giving context to the new hands-on areas.
It also appeared that a good number of previously unseen artefacts were now on permanent display.

So, aircraft moved under cover, artefacts now on display, AND 21st century ‘attraction’ type displays to ‘entertain’ CAN be put together successfully.
It just takes a little thought by those making the decisions and not being blinded by current trends that will be out of date in a very short period of time.
Last edited by aviationanoraks on Wed 10 Aug 2022, 6:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
aviationanoraks
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu 18 Feb 2010, 7:45 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Cosford changes

Post by aviationanoraks »

UKTopgun wrote:
Tue 09 Aug 2022, 9:28 pm
Not sure if it still exists but I thought the Fleet Air Arm museum carrier deck experience was brilliant for kids and adults alike. It presented airframes but in a very exciting and relevant context.
The carrier display has just been reworked and had a few changes to the flight deck, with the Seafire and a couple of others replacing other types.
Think it only reopened last week, so not seen it yet and can’t comment on how it has changed.
(Did visit in March though and still found the deck fascinating, but the tower part was closed as part of the refurbishment).

User avatar
iainpeden
Posts: 3730
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 7:01 pm
Location: Great Oakley, Corby, Northants

Re: Cosford changes

Post by iainpeden »

For Cole, and any others who wish to let the powers that be have their thoughts, the most ( possibly only) way is to write to the secretary of the trustees of whichever museum asking that your concerns are considered at a meeting.

In my opinion the trustees of too many organisations sit there happily at the quarterly meetings rubber stamping ideas and not drilling down into detail. Just look at the backlash and loss of membership the National Trust has suffered recently.

Having been to Cosford and seen that corporate plan I will be putting pen to paper for the RAF museum trustees this week.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

User avatar
cometguymk1
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon 04 Nov 2019, 8:30 am

Re: Cosford changes

Post by cometguymk1 »

If done well immersive displays work so well to inspire or teach children. I have always remembered that Carrier exhibit from my first visit as a kid and was delighted to see it was still going when i last went (even if the tower bits av was a bit dated).

Although not aircraft i can also remember there used to be two walk throughs at IWM Lambeth of a trench and the blitz that have stuck since a young age.

DOUGHNUT
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat 21 Mar 2009, 2:49 pm

Re: Cosford changes

Post by DOUGHNUT »

The disposal list released (leaked ?) last year was without context to the master plan that is now public. I had really hope the RAFM could have expanded into the other hangars currently in RAF use on the airfield. It seems that an agreement on that could not be made, the but understand the old buildings need a lot of maintanance and upgrade.

User avatar
Professor_M
Posts: 1028
Joined: Tue 26 Jul 2022, 8:54 am

Re: Cosford changes

Post by Professor_M »

CASA 352 (Ju52) to Hawkinge from Cosford
(https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/j ... ain-museum)

Post Reply