RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

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yossarian
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by yossarian »

Thanks for replying and interesting I am in the minority on the Italian Typhoon - there was an extraordinarily tight high speed turn early on its display, I think that's what really got me going. Or maybe I'd just opened a beer at that point. The RAF display was excellent of course, and fully agree on the brilliantly flown Belgian F-16 display. I really enjoyed the review of this Riat by this site, captures the mood perfectly and well written.

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capercaillie
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by capercaillie »

I'm with you and thought the Italian was better than the RAF one, it was certainly closer than the display from last year. Also thought the RAF one was very short and didn't mix it up enough, too much slow stuff without the drama of the Finnish Hornet.

Best three fast jets were the Belgian F-16, Rafale and F-18. Danish looked OK on practice but difficult to judge without it being right in front of you which we didn't see over the weekend.

Paul Bowen trophy should have still gone to the Sk60 however. You don't always need afterburners!
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by Bodz156 »

I'd agree also on the Italian Typhoon, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the RAF demo btw....I just thought the Italian AF demo was more pleasing to watch. On the Sunday (only day I really focussed on the flying) I thought it was as good a Typhoon display as I'd seen (since probably the Spanish AF effort in 2016..). Definitely closer than last year!

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by rockfordstone »

capercaillie wrote:
Thu 03 Aug 2023, 1:18 pm
I'm with you and thought the Italian was better than the RAF one, it was certainly closer than the display from last year. Also thought the RAF one was very short and didn't mix it up enough
I might be wrong, but didn't Ben Dunnell say over the weekend that the RAF Typhoon display was cut short? it did certainly feel shorter compared to what i saw at Cosford

I was indifferent to the Italian Typhoon display. It was good but missed the spot for me but i can't put a finger on why. normally i think their display is far better than ours. I don't think the smoke pods added anything to the display either

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JMC
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by JMC »

Italian Typhoon in 2019 was the best Tiffie demo i've seen imo.

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by danspuggti »

rockfordstone wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 9:43 am
I might be wrong, but didn't Ben Dunnell say over the weekend that the RAF Typhoon display was cut short? it did certainly feel shorter compared to what i saw at Cosford
I know the one day (I think it was on the Sunday) it had to hold on the runway due to traffic into going into Brize, so it probably burnt off a chunk of it's display fuel whilst doing so.
Same old sh*t.............just happening on a different day!!!

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jasonT1981
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by jasonT1981 »

danspuggti wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 11:19 am
rockfordstone wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 9:43 am
I might be wrong, but didn't Ben Dunnell say over the weekend that the RAF Typhoon display was cut short? it did certainly feel shorter compared to what i saw at Cosford
I know the one day (I think it was on the Sunday) it had to hold on the runway due to traffic into going into Brize, so it probably burnt off a chunk of it's display fuel whilst doing so.
On the Friday the Typhoon had to abort display half way through due to weather conditions. Maybe that is what you are thinking about?
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by rockfordstone »

jasonT1981 wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 3:47 pm
danspuggti wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 11:19 am
rockfordstone wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 9:43 am
I might be wrong, but didn't Ben Dunnell say over the weekend that the RAF Typhoon display was cut short? it did certainly feel shorter compared to what i saw at Cosford
I know the one day (I think it was on the Sunday) it had to hold on the runway due to traffic into going into Brize, so it probably burnt off a chunk of it's display fuel whilst doing so.
On the Friday the Typhoon had to abort display half way through due to weather conditions. Maybe that is what you are thinking about?
i thought he had to cut it short saturday as well. i could be wrong

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by Jameslw1993 »

The delay due to Brize traffic was on the Saturday, Sunday was the full display if I remember correctly.
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by danspuggti »

Jameslw1993 wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 4:37 pm
The delay due to Brize traffic was on the Saturday, Sunday was the full display if I remember correctly.
I knew it was one of the days. TBH doing the 6 days this year really tired me out and the Saturday & Sunday main show days are just a blur.
Same old sh*t.............just happening on a different day!!!

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by lynothehammer »

rockfordstone wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 4:12 pm
jasonT1981 wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 3:47 pm
danspuggti wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 11:19 am
rockfordstone wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 9:43 am
I might be wrong, but didn't Ben Dunnell say over the weekend that the RAF Typhoon display was cut short? it did certainly feel shorter compared to what i saw at Cosford
I know the one day (I think it was on the Sunday) it had to hold on the runway due to traffic into going into Brize, so it probably burnt off a chunk of it's display fuel whilst doing so.
On the Friday the Typhoon had to abort display half way through due to weather conditions. Maybe that is what you are thinking about?
i thought he had to cut it short saturday as well. i could be wrong

Not wrong, it was due to a VIP aircraft on the approach to Brize.

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capercaillie
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by capercaillie »

Jameslw1993 wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 4:37 pm
The delay due to Brize traffic was on the Saturday, Sunday was the full display if I remember correctly.
I only saw it on Sunday and it still seemed very short as a display with no real punch. Then again in 20 years of watching RAF Typhoons displaying, I've never been in awe to be honest compared to many FJ displays. For a highly agile type it just lacks spark that you get with F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Rafale, MiG29, Su27 displays.
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by Jameslw1993 »

capercaillie wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 5:24 pm
Jameslw1993 wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 4:37 pm
The delay due to Brize traffic was on the Saturday, Sunday was the full display if I remember correctly.
I only saw it on Sunday and it still seemed very short as a display with no real punch. Then again in 20 years of watching RAF Typhoons displaying, I've never been in awe to be honest compared to many FJ displays. For a highly agile type it just lacks spark that you get with F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Rafale, MiG29, Su27 displays.
Yes I agree, it always seems a bit fatigued to me. Especially compared to the Rafale, for an delta/canard winged, twin engine aircraft of similiar size, the Rafale always looks so much more sharp and agile.
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JJC
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by JJC »

I’d suggest there’s a difference in what people call a good display.

I thought the Italian outshone the RAF routine in terms of dynamism, power and sheer spectacle - slingshotting around all over the place with far more energy, whereas the RAF routine is probably more appealing to a typical photographer who wants full frame shots of the aircraft.

Whilst I’m on that note, when did high speed passes stop featuring afterburners?! So many routines these days seem to rely on the kinetic energy gained by dropping down from height, rather than the sheer power of the engine coming in straight and level? Just me….?
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by Wissam24 »

JJC wrote:
Sat 05 Aug 2023, 10:42 am

Whilst I’m on that note, when did high speed passes stop featuring afterburners?! So many routines these days seem to rely on the kinetic energy gained by dropping down from height, rather than the sheer power of the engine coming in straight and level? Just me….?
When engines became so powerful that sticking it in afterburner will take it over the maximum permitted speed in a few seconds
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by boff180 »

Yup the example they give for the Typhoon is if they use reheat for take off and rotate at circa 150knots they are supersonic within the next 25 seconds…imagine that acceleration when your already faster than Mach 0.5

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by JJC »

Noted! Thanks chaps. Makes a lot of sense and not something I’d considered.
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by Mfoster »

jasonT1981 wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 3:47 pm
danspuggti wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 11:19 am
rockfordstone wrote:
Fri 04 Aug 2023, 9:43 am
I might be wrong, but didn't Ben Dunnell say over the weekend that the RAF Typhoon display was cut short? it did certainly feel shorter compared to what i saw at Cosford
I know the one day (I think it was on the Sunday) it had to hold on the runway due to traffic into going into Brize, so it probably burnt off a chunk of it's display fuel whilst doing so.
On the Friday the Typhoon had to abort display half way through due to weather conditions. Maybe that is what you are thinking about?
He had actually just finished his display when told to terminate - had a chat with Brighty after the displays had finished on the Saturday and asked him about it

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by OscarM »

I'm not posting very often on here but would like to share my toughts about this years show.

I've been to 23 (R)IAT's from 1995 till 2023 and every year has been great! RIAT offers always good quality and quantity. Coming from The Netherlands and spending every year quit some money to attend but it's always worth it. Entering the showground feels like coming home. RIAT breathes something special.

This year saw (for me) some juicy highlights for which I want to compliment the organisation:
Spanish and Italian Harriers
The B52's
All the Italians, especially those small S208's. What a trip must that have been for the crew!
Qatar Typhoon
Saudi A330MRTT

On the other hand, the tanker theme missed the KC-10 for sure. A tanker theme without a KC-10 :confused: , for the last time.
Also shame of the UAE C-17 and Saudi C-130 which could not be present for static display. And I guess we all dreamt about IAF B-707's in smokey livery, UAE, Singapore, Korean, Australian A330's and Pakistani and Indian IL-78's but we can't have them all. Another last minute dream was the Indian AF participation which was probably very close. Unfortunately it didn't become reality.

The only thing which was in my eyes not well organized was the inbound traffic and the long long queue at the entrance. Arriving on saturday via blue route which had small roads and traffic lights because of down coming traffic.... I realy don't understand that.

Another thing which I'm thinking about is if connecties are tightened with air arms during the event? For example the Saudi contignent. I saw a group of 4 female Saudi crewmembers walking around, taking pictures and having fun. I wonder what the show does with other/those crews and if connections are made stronger? I'm very curious about what participating air arms think about the show and if they give feedback to the organisation? Guess they also receive a an e-mail with request for feedback :sweat_smile: . Would like to know more about that. Maybe it is building relations step by step and more or other Saudi (for example) aircraft could be welcomed in the future.

The same question could be asked if the show causes better or more connections between NATO members? What does it do between them? And has the show a purpose in this? For example: the Swedish and Finnish jets were supposed to fly with the RAF Voyager. These 3 arms have to organize this and have to work together. Could imagine that behind the scenes there is a lot more going on then that we see.

So, on to 2024. Next year will probably see an F-16 theme and 75 Years of NATO. 1999 Was a really classic one for NATO 50. Lets do it again!!

Thanks to the organisation/DBH/RIAT Air Ops for this incredible 2023 show!!

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by RIAT Air Ops »

Evening All,

Having dried out, and just about caught up on sleep, I thought I'd take a read back of the comments and reply to a few which jumped out at me.
G-CVIX wrote:
Fri 14 Jul 2023, 10:02 am
Does anyone know the operator of that smart looking 737(?) that took off a while ago?
The Boeing Company themselves.
Berf wrote:
Fri 14 Jul 2023, 2:30 pm
Once again the wheel is irritating in the background, Not sure the static in red is better this way around
If you're photographing the static at the east end, with the sun on your back, facing north, I'm not sure how you'd get the Fairford eye in the background?
keithjs wrote:
Fri 14 Jul 2023, 5:07 pm
james143611 wrote:
Fri 14 Jul 2023, 4:50 pm
Went to the souvenir stand to get a checklist sheet and was told they don't do those anymore, thats a shame, I assume somewhere there will be a list of what was in the flying display?
Oh,that’s a shame If that’s true but I thought they were only available from Saturday mornings anyway?
Aircraft Checklists are printed on Friday evening, for sale on Saturday/Sunday.
AARDVARK wrote:
Sat 15 Jul 2023, 3:33 pm
JMC wrote:
Sat 15 Jul 2023, 3:15 pm
AARDVARK wrote:
Sat 15 Jul 2023, 2:56 pm
RAF Voyager with (can’t even spare our own aircraft for flyby)no hose even extended.. pathetic!
Pathetic is a bit over the top, it was supposed to be with the Swedish Gripen also and did you not see the conditions just before they flew through?
You can’t win! If the F-35 and Blackjack were part of the AAR flypast, you’d be whining why dbh didn’t arrange for the F-35 to fly with the Harrier!
Simply saying we can’t even provide x2 of our own aircraft for our own tanker, nothing to do with DBH!
For clarity (and in the RAF's defence): It was our proposal to position the Swedish Gripen & Finnish Hornet behind the British Voyager, as a 'Welcome to NATO' moment. (The RAF were willing to provide the fast jets for the flypast if required). However, the decision to fly without hoses deployed was against our wishes.
andrewn wrote:
Sun 16 Jul 2023, 10:05 pm
I thought the UK services contribution overall was low-key, but not exactly surprising given the relative paucity of types and numbers we operate nowadays, and the virtual disappearance of squadron markings doesn't help.
Credit where it's due, the Typhoon force fulfilled our request to bring airframes with squadron markings (and weapon loads).
CJS wrote:
Mon 17 Jul 2023, 4:22 pm
Static display. There were a few odd choices, for example several airframes parked backwards (the RR Spitfire was 1) but overall it was great.
These (and other light aircraft) were repositioned due to the extreme winds predicted, to avoid damaging the aircraft, by pointing them into wind.
bedfordshirevulcan wrote:
Mon 17 Jul 2023, 8:42 pm
Should be maybe why regular countries such as Greece and Poland didn't attend with anything to be able to support next year
I am confused, given both the Hellenic Air Force and Polish Air Force were both represented at RIAT 2023?
HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 7:07 pm
Shame about the Helo displays, and unless RIAT insist on duo displays some customers are gojng to fall asleep with nothing flying in front of them for a while.
We do ask the crews to fly the extended length of the crowdline where possible. That said, with RIAT being one of the longest display lines of any European airshow, it is understandable whys some helicopter displays can appear to be centre-focused. It would be improper of us to force crews to change their PDAed routines to meet our preferences.
HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 7:07 pm
And maybe with pan space, do a Cosford with instead of lines of aircraft spread out, have some revetments for aircraft etc, just to break the static up etc?
Again, slightly confused by this. Are you suggesting we ask the USAF to dig up their taxiway and build blast walls to form revetments?
st24 wrote:
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 8:29 pm
Wes_Howes wrote:
Tue 18 Jul 2023, 1:53 pm
My only real gripe has to be the catering, especially in P&V East. Why can't we have a simple, roadside-style, burger van selling the usual fare? Why does it have to be a van selling a very over-priced breakfast bap, with jam, in a brioche bun? Or one selling curries? I get that some people want choice but equally, some people just want a plain, old, bacon sandwich.
Absobloodylutely this. A pork "boutique" and a quirky curry van may sound niche and diverse but they really aren't what most punters want. Let's go back to basics here eh?...
Not my department, but I know colleagues are taking stock of the feedback given on our new catering provider, to ensure customer demand is accommodated for next July.
Tommy wrote:
Wed 19 Jul 2023, 1:58 pm
It really is bizarre how bad RIAT are at announcing trophy winners every year. We’re reduced to trying to work stuff out based on trawling the internet for info. It’s such an easy thing for RIAT to do.
They must have a list anyway for the announcement at the hangar party, so just convert that to a branded PDF/image, and put it out on socials. Dead easy, and far greater for boosting engagement and numbers on social media than silence.
Fair point, we could do better on this. I will discuss with colleagues with an aim to improve for RIAT 2024.
capercaillie wrote:
Thu 20 Jul 2023, 1:45 pm
The biggest disappointment was what happened to the three Italian historic jets? The two MB326s had arrival slot on Wednesday around 6pm where did they go? And the rumour mill was working overtime with the Gina and the CAA. I'm sure in time everything will be known.
We had quite the run of bad luck with Italian vintage aeroplanes. The Beech 18 has an engine failure which thwarted its flight to the paint shop (and onwards flight to RIAT). Family medical issues prevented the pilot of the P.166C flying to the UK. Then the owner of the MB.326s broke his leg on the Monday, meaning he was unable to lead their flight to Fairford. The FIAT G.91 was flown on a 'Permit to Test' for its appearance at Pratica di Mare. Despite the best efforts of the team who restored the aircraft, ENAC (Italian Civil Aviation Authority) had not issued the aircraft proper permit to fly yet, therefore it was unable to fly to the UK.
st24 wrote:
Mon 24 Jul 2023, 12:56 pm
- Like others I'm not completely enamored by the static layout still. The sacrosanct Green end parking is not like it used to be, the addition of the service road means a lot of vehicles pass by and a lot park there too - not ideal. Parking them E-W means you can only truly get one side in the sun and only during peak day time when any enthusiast worth their salt will be watching the flying. Also why not put the special AMX and U208 there too and the German Tiffie etc and dump the Dutch F-35s into the fairground.
Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 25 Jul 2023, 2:06 pm
A huge fail was dumping the Belgian Sf260 right at the end of the showground like it was a complete afterthought. That really was one of the gems of the static, a fantastically rare aeroplane to have there and it was abysmally placed. I really thought it should been on the spot next to the Harriers instead of the F-16. As you say though, none of those were well placed. As it happens, on Saturday morning they were pulling all the aircraft forward with a tow, indicating they had been placed further back and angled and then for whatever reason moved. Some explanation needed I think.
Despite our intention and efforts, the vehicles parking behind Bay 47 was an annoyance all weekend. I can only apologise. Again, one for me to work on preventing next year. The parking plan did have the aircraft at angles in a V shape, but the loss of the second Phantom, third Spanish Harrier and late arrival of Hungarian Gripen meant we had some unfortunate gaps in the proposed layout which looked very odd. Therefore the team made a tactical decision to realign the aircraft to fill the gaps (which I support them on). However, comments noted on the diminished photographic opportunities with how they were positioned in the end, which I will consider in next year's parking plan. The F-16 was due to the be 'Stingers' special tail, hence it's inclusion in this area. The Italians needed to remain in the Italian area for synergy. Having the AMXs and U-208s separately would have been rather odd. As others have managed to surmise, losing an E-6B Mercury and C-27J Spartan in the final week, creates large gaps in a parking plan, therefore rapid rearrangement is required and the extreme West end of the static didn't appear as planned, such is life when working in aviation! The smaller aircraft were positioned so they could be tied down to the airfield drain grills, due to the high winds.
OscarM wrote:
Sun 06 Aug 2023, 1:43 pm
On the other hand, the tanker theme missed the KC-10 for sure. A tanker theme without a KC-10 :confused: , for the last time.
It wasn't for the lack of trying..!

Cheers All,
Peter

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by cg_341 »

Just for the record Peter, I quite liked the spaced out nature of green - it was probably the only space on the airfield with room to breathe between taking pictures! 😂

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by jasonT1981 »

Thanks for the update Peter.

My only other criticism is the confusion over start times. In the days before the show, RIAT social media stated the flying times had changed and the display didn't start until 10:30am.

Then it did actually start at 10am without an updated post to let people know. Didn't really affect me, I got to see the majority of the static but there were a few complaining about it on the Saturday.
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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by OscarM »

Thanks Peter!

I know it wasn't for the lack of trying to get the KC-10 to Fairford. I'm sure you all wanted it as much as we do or even more! All your efforts of getting certain airframes to Fairford are much appreciated!!

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by iainpeden »

Thank you for the update; always good to find out what didn’t quite work, why something was done one particular way and not another and, most importantly, that lessons are learnt and acted upon.
Roll on ‘24.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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Re: RIAT 2023 Discuss everything thread

Post by rokut »

Just to touch on the Typhoon displays: what I have always appreciated is just how much distance it covers in no time at all. There is not a jet that bullies the sky around it in such a way.
It punches so hard and just tears across the sky. That's what I am always in awe of - it's just brutally powerful and kicks around the big sky above you like it's no distance at all. Very impressive

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