RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

All you'll ever need to know about the UK's biggest airshow
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iainpeden
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by iainpeden »

capercaillie wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2024, 3:45 pm

Whereas the Rafale has taken the mantle on from the Mirage 2000 solo very well.
And the Typhoon has had to take on the mantle of the Tornado GR.1/4 and F.3, the Buccaneer, the Phantom and the (EE) Lightning. :innocent:
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by capercaillie »

iainpeden wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2024, 4:31 pm
capercaillie wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2024, 3:45 pm

Whereas the Rafale has taken the mantle on from the Mirage 2000 solo very well.
And the Typhoon has had to take on the mantle of the Tornado GR.1/4 and F.3, the Buccaneer, the Phantom and the (EE) Lightning. :innocent:
I think you may be stretching reality a little too far there me thinks! Directly its replaced only the Tornados and the Jaguar, and despite it being an enormously more capable display aircraft than any of those, its never quite nailed it the same way as the Rafale, the later F-18s or even a top F-16 display (Belgian or Dutch as examples) have.

Anyway we're moving away from RIAT into fast jet display merits and Tom will get moody again.

So to keep it relevant, both the Rafale and Couteau Delta have space available in the calendar over RIAT weekend, so now Cosford's out of the way, how much bribery do they need?
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Morgangalley »

Saturday now sold out!

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Wissam24 »

I think it's perfectly valid to acknowledge that a display looks good but also say that it being quite short is a shame. I don't think it being a manufacturer demo is any particular excuse for it to not be a full length demo, I'm sure they could add to it if they wanted.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by boff180 »

The RAF demo has been designed to be flow with a tank installed. In the rare instance it is removed, the nature of the PDA doesn’t Sean they can suddenly increase its aggressiveness

I’ve always also got the impression that the RAF hold back the aircraft’s true capabilities.

Andy

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by CJS »

boff180 wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2024, 6:52 pm
I’ve always also got the impression that the RAF hold back the aircraft’s true capabilities.

Andy
See I've always thought that the RAF Typhoon display has been better flown and punchier than the Italian or Spanish displays - I guess it's very subjective.

On your point above Andy I suspect you're probably bang on, but then do any aircraft really show off to the max what they are capable of in a display at an airshow?

It will be fascinating to compare the 2 F-15 displays - clean and loaded - to see if there is any discernible difference; from what everyone's saying there won't be. IIRC (which to be fair I probably don't) when BAE displayed a tooled up Typhoon in [insert correct year] it was noticeable that the ordinance did make a difference, but not by much.

Aerodynamically, I'd have thought that an aircraft with a full weapons load must be less capable than one that's empty, so if the displays are similar perhaps the clean display if anything is the one that's holding back? Would you have to have 2 pilots who have both validated 2 separate displays I wonder, or are the routines likely to be identical?
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by verreli »

CJS wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2024, 8:21 pm
It will be fascinating to compare the 2 F-15 displays - clean and loaded - to see if there is any discernible difference; from what everyone's saying there won't be.
If you watch the online video of the St Louis display the clean jet has a higher pitch rate which is about what you'd expect.

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Wissam24 »

CJS wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2024, 8:21 pm

Aerodynamically, I'd have thought that an aircraft with a full weapons load must be less capable than one that's empty, so if the displays are similar perhaps the clean display if anything is the one that's holding back? Would you have to have 2 pilots who have both validated 2 separate displays I wonder, or are the routines likely to be identical?
On paper, an A2A loadout will have minimal effect on a display performance. While they're not featherweight missiles, by definition aerodynamically they're extremely low drag and high-g, so they shouldn't effect what the aircraft can do very much at all, bar a weight penalty (which could be equally achieved by simply filling it with fuel). After all, they're designed to fly faster than and pull harder than the jet carrying them. In fact, avid UKAR readers will recall our 2018 interview with the French Navy Rafale Pairs demo at RIAT who commented on the very same:
Fairford is no stranger to “tooled up” displays but there was something quite sleek about the air interception loadout with two MICA IR and two MICA EM missiles on each aircraft, and where similar displays such as the BAE Systems Typhoon demo might seek to show the capabilities of the jet at maximum combat weight this configuration didn’t impact the demo. While some air-to-ground configurations require the Rafale’s flight control system to force a lower “g”-limit, an all air-to-air configuration doesn’t impact the aeroplane’s limits as the missiles don’t add that much drag and their “g”-limits are much higher than the aircraft’s own or indeed those of the pilot operating them.
A2G loadouts tend to have lower g-limits due to weight on the pylons and are usually more draggy, especially bombs, as they don't need to keep their energy as much as a missile (gravity makes up for it).

I guess the pilot question is down to Boeing! A test pilot should be able to handle two displays in their particular aircraft I'd have thought, it's not like military jet demos don't have high and low displays by the same pilots.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Jameslw1993 »

Wissam24 wrote:
Mon 10 Jun 2024, 6:04 pm
I think it's perfectly valid to acknowledge that a display looks good but also say that it being quite short is a shame. I don't think it being a manufacturer demo is any particular excuse for it to not be a full length demo, I'm sure they could add to it if they wanted.
People just need to be grateful that we're getting this display in the first place, no matter the duration of it.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Wissam24 »

Well, I don't know about blind gratitude. If it was 1 minute long I'd say not to bother to be honest.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Jameslw1993 »

Which is better than none. With one minute being a flypast or two, before the announcement of the display, would have been took very well.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Wissam24 »

No, I'd say it'd be pretty pointless and worth about as much as none. Might as well just be on static and get it on the Monday.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by JMC »



Best footage i've seen of the display so far. That first pass! Can now see why sometimes it's referred to as the screaming Eagle 🔥

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by verreli »

Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 9:12 am
On paper, an A2A loadout will have minimal effect on a display performance. While they're not featherweight missiles, by definition aerodynamically they're extremely low drag and high-g, so they shouldn't effect what the aircraft can do very much at all, bar a weight penalty (which could be equally achieved by simply filling it with fuel). After all, they're designed to fly faster than and pull harder than the jet carrying them.
Ah, the devil is in the detail.

Regarding low drag, sort of. Imagine a space rocket going vertically up - low drag. Now angle it at 20 degrees to the airflow - is it still low drag?

No performance penalty? An AIM-120 weighs 161Kg. Twelve adds almost two tonnes to the load out. Are you saying two tonnes doesn't add a performance penalty? Hmmmm. Takeoff weight is likely to be c.18 tonne clean and 20 tonne tooled. An 11% difference.

The F15 Advanced is FBW with carefree handling. You can see from the display that the pilot sets airspeed and altitude. Selects max burner then pulls. I guess he pulls to the max so the FBW will give him the best performance available for the config - clean, loaded or partial - guess also fuel weight is taken into account. Even if the missile was just a display shell that weighed a fraction of a live missile, the FBW wouldn't know that so would assume with twelve missiles there's 2 tonne hanging off the aircraft. I think it's noticeable from the videos that this leads to a performance difference.

Final point, why would Boeing have a clean and loaded display if there wasn't a difference?

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by verreli »

Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 10:42 am
No, I'd say it'd be pretty pointless and worth about as much as none. Might as well just be on static and get it on the Monday.
Best cancel the B-1 / B-52 / U2 / Beluga displays then.

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Brevet Cable »

Makes me laugh that people post stuff like 'X' aircraft did this at 'X' airshow....'Y' aircraft did such and such at 'Z' airshow.....
None of which are Fairford, so to me it's pointless, especially where the highlighted airshows happen to be overseas.

Why not just wait until after you've physically seen them at RIAT ( as opposed to watching video footage ) ?

Yeah, I'm a grumpy bugger, so I'll just throw in a MEH!! for good measure.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Bodz156 »

Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 10:42 am
No, I'd say it'd be pretty pointless and worth about as much as none. Might as well just be on static and get it on the Monday.
Agree wholeheartedly with this. Never understood the clamour for 'fly-pasts', whatever the aircraft is. Anybody who attends arrivals will get to see what are effectively 'fly-pasts' of almost everything that attends.

Having been going since 2009 I can only recall one 'fly-past' appearance that sticks in the memory as being worth doing - the 2017 B-2 & F-15s pair of top-sides. That was memorable & special. All the others just seem to me to be time-fillers.

Anyway, hopefully the F-15QA will be up for long enough. And crossing my fingers it's not being flown based on FIA regulations.... :fingers_crossed: :camera_with_flash:

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by JMC »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:30 am
Makes me laugh that people post stuff like 'X' aircraft did this at 'X' airshow....'Y' aircraft did such and such at 'Z' airshow.....
None of which are Fairford, so to me it's pointless, especially where the highlighted airshows happen to be overseas.

Why not just wait until after you've physically seen them at RIAT ( as opposed to watching video footage ) ?

Yeah, I'm a grumpy bugger, so I'll just throw in a MEH!! for good measure.
Because a vast majority of the time, said display is identical to wherever it performs because they've worked up a routine that would've had to have been approved.

I don't doubt the Red Arrows will be the exact same at RIAT than at Cosford?

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Wissam24 »

verreli wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:27 am
Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 9:12 am
On paper, an A2A loadout will have minimal effect on a display performance. While they're not featherweight missiles, by definition aerodynamically they're extremely low drag and high-g, so they shouldn't effect what the aircraft can do very much at all, bar a weight penalty (which could be equally achieved by simply filling it with fuel). After all, they're designed to fly faster than and pull harder than the jet carrying them.
Ah, the devil is in the detail.

Regarding low drag, sort of. Imagine a space rocket going vertically up - low drag. Now angle it at 20 degrees to the airflow - is it still low drag?
Yes.
No performance penalty? An AIM-120 weighs 161Kg. Twelve adds almost two tonnes to the load out. Are you saying two tonnes doesn't add a performance penalty? Hmmmm. Takeoff weight is likely to be c.18 tonne clean and 20 tonne tooled. An 11% difference.
And as you'll remember from my own quote, you could achieve the same "look how little difference it makes!" by just filling a clean jet with two more tonnes of fuel (or thereabouts) since the only real penalty is weight.
Final point, why would Boeing have a clean and loaded display if there wasn't a difference?
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by capercaillie »

Bodz156 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:39 am
Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 10:42 am
No, I'd say it'd be pretty pointless and worth about as much as none. Might as well just be on static and get it on the Monday.
Agree wholeheartedly with this. Never understood the clamour for 'fly-pasts', whatever the aircraft is. Anybody who attends arrivals will get to see what are effectively 'fly-pasts' of almost everything that attends.

Having been going since 2009 I can only recall one 'fly-past' appearance that sticks in the memory as being worth doing - the 2017 B-2 & F-15s pair of top-sides. That was memorable & special. All the others just seem to me to be time-fillers.

Anyway, hopefully the F-15QA will be up for long enough. And crossing my fingers it's not being flown based on FIA regulations.... :fingers_crossed: :camera_with_flash:
Yes, the B-52 and KC-135 flypasts last year were fairly pointless, although a B-52 taking off short is a joy to behold so worth it just for that.

However done correctly, a single flypast can be worthwhile. If the French C-135 had performed any of the three flybys as a single pass only they would have been great, a single B-1B flypast wings back knife edge into rolling departure is phenomenal, we used to get C-5s dropping by en route Mildenhall/Ramstein to States, gear down whining like an unhappy mule - looked fantastic. But its got to be right.

Sukhoi Superjet - can leave that one thanks.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by verreli »

Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:44 am
verreli wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:27 am

Regarding low drag, sort of. Imagine a space rocket going vertically up - low drag. Now angle it at 20 degrees to the airflow - is it still low drag?
Yes.
Almost, have another go.
Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:44 am
And as you'll remember from my own quote, you could achieve the same "look how little difference it makes!" by just filling a clean jet with two more tonnes of fuel (or thereabouts) since the only real penalty is weight.
The FBW doesn't care. All it sees is that it's carrying an extra 2 tonne for a given fuel load which for each point of its display will be about the same. The performance deficit increases as fuel is used.
Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:44 am
verreli wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:27 am
Final point, why would Boeing have a clean and loaded display if there wasn't a difference?
Marketing
At least you tried.

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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Wissam24 »

verreli wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 12:02 pm
Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:44 am
verreli wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:27 am

Regarding low drag, sort of. Imagine a space rocket going vertically up - low drag. Now angle it at 20 degrees to the airflow - is it still low drag?
Yes.
Almost, have another go.
Yes.

For the same reason that a Concorde in a flat spin is still a supersonic airliner. The design doesn't change just because the attitude has. Hope that helps.
Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:44 am
And as you'll remember from my own quote, you could achieve the same "look how little difference it makes!" by just filling a clean jet with two more tonnes of fuel (or thereabouts) since the only real penalty is weight.
The FBW doesn't care. All it sees is that it's carrying an extra 2 tonne for a given fuel load which for each point of its display will be about the same. The performance deficit increases as fuel is used.
Exactly. Glad you've come round now - it's clear now that for a meaningful "look at the difference" display you'd want something that impacts the limits and isn't just a weight increase.
Wissam24 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:44 am
verreli wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 11:27 am
Final point, why would Boeing have a clean and loaded display if there wasn't a difference?
Marketing
At least you tried.
In fact, it was no effort at all.
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by jasonT1981 »

The Dutch f16 arrived by road today it seems. J-616
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by capercaillie »

jasonT1981 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 12:16 pm
The Dutch f16 arrived by road today it seems. J-616
What was its drag like?
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Re: RIAT 2024 - discuss most things thread

Post by Wissam24 »

capercaillie wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 12:21 pm
jasonT1981 wrote:
Tue 11 Jun 2024, 12:16 pm
The Dutch f16 arrived by road today it seems. J-616
What was its drag like?
She slayed
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