RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Forum for information about the annual show at RAF Cosford
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rdchawk
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by rdchawk »

smr wrote:Did we miss a lot btw? We got there just as the Typhoon was flying. That was around 12ish, maybe 12.30. Last year I rememeber a few things before the Typhoon like parachutists etc.


Would've missed A400m fly past, red arrows fly past with King air and a formation of tutors.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

Adamwilliams132 wrote:I finally caught a glimpse of a flying tutor 3 ship formation that's a tick of the bucket list.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Very good. :clap:
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by stevebrodie »

Luke28 wrote:I understand and support the grumbles about the commentary, lack of information regarding cancellations, poor static positioning etc but surely anybody thats been to an airshow before, or indeed any outdoor event, knew exactly what they were letting themselves in for with regards food pricing? I know at RIAT that the catering company pays for a pitch and then set there own prices on what they selln.


Really ?, i thought everything at Fairford is/was priced the same no matter which concession provider you go to selling the same item.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by NTG1610 »

stevebrodie wrote:
Luke28 wrote:I understand and support the grumbles about the commentary, lack of information regarding cancellations, poor static positioning etc but surely anybody thats been to an airshow before, or indeed any outdoor event, knew exactly what they were letting themselves in for with regards food pricing? I know at RIAT that the catering company pays for a pitch and then set there own prices on what they selln.


Really ?, i thought everything at Fairford is/was priced the same no matter which concession provider you go to selling the same item.


Most field sites be it air show/ motor racing / country fair all have set field price for catering outlets that way every one gets a fair share of the public's money, if they could set their own price then one stand would simply undercut everyone else and take all the proceeds,
Whilst I accept prices are high it is a captive market and the rules of supply and demand take over, all that said you never see to many food outlets with no people queuing

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Ever since my first IAT in 1991, there's been an official price list for catering listed in the programme. Which of course you first require a mortgage to buy in any case...

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by Mooshie1956 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Ever since my first IAT in 1991, there's been an official price list for catering listed in the programme. Which of course you first require a mortgage to buy in any case...


I will say Cosford do the same, as in previous years the prices have been in the programme, I can't say about this year as I didn't go.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by nighthawk999 »

Mooshie1956 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Ever since my first IAT in 1991, there's been an official price list for catering listed in the programme. Which of course you first require a mortgage to buy in any case...


I will say Cosford do the same, as in previous years the prices have been in the programme, I can't say about this year as I didn't go.

The prices are in the programme but no mention of the aforesaid pork baps.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by jason82wells »

nighthawk999 wrote:
Mooshie1956 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Ever since my first IAT in 1991, there's been an official price list for catering listed in the programme. Which of course you first require a mortgage to buy in any case...


I will say Cosford do the same, as in previous years the prices have been in the programme, I can't say about this year as I didn't go.

The prices are in the programme but no mention of the aforesaid pork baps.


Had to laugh at this :lmao:

With regards to the point in general, the bottom line is whenever you get these stalls/trailers turn up at big public events like this, you expect to be ripped off, you expect to be given poor quality food to keep you going - as such the value for money is always going to be poor.

The public may not know the prices of these items prior to travelling to the event, but it's naive/stupid to think it's going to be cheap & tasty :snack:

If RAF Cosford/the RAF take a cut on the profits, good for them & more fool the people who buy from them. If they don't take a cut, it's a mute point & there's probably little they can do about the pricing.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by Wissam24 »

jason82wells wrote:
The public may not know the prices of these items prior to travelling to the event, but it's naive/stupid to think it's going to be cheap & tasty :snack:


Well, not in the UK. At the Danish Air Show (held on the same day), we had some really very good kebabs for 50 kroner each, about £5. Bear in mind Denmark is generally more expensive than the UK so an equivalent would be lower here. Very good value for money indeed, and at a free airshow as well. I'd like to know how that compares to other shows on the continent and whether it really is us on our island getting ripped off.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by john001 »

Wissam24 wrote:
jason82wells wrote:
The public may not know the prices of these items prior to travelling to the event, but it's naive/stupid to think it's going to be cheap & tasty :snack:


Well, not in the UK. At the Danish Air Show (held on the same day), we had some really very good kebabs for 50 kroner each, about £5. Bear in mind Denmark is generally more expensive than the UK so an equivalent would be lower here. Very good value for money indeed, and at a free airshow as well. I'd like to know how that compares to other shows on the continent and whether it really is us on our island getting ripped off.


I believe 25% of that Danish total is VAT so it makes the Uk price even worse.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by davidjones533 »

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

It's not unique to Britain. Last week I paid $10 for a beer at a Major League Baseball game. A hot-dog was around the £6 equivalent.

Bottom line is, eat a good breakfast before an airshow, and take your own light bites from outside. There's no need to be gorging yourself on the muck inside the venues whatsoever.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by strangelookingalien »

I really enjoyed my weekend at Cosford, and feel bad for the team about the cancellations.

There's no point complaining about the weather or cancellations since the team can't do anything about that...

What they did right:

The static display was brilliant. Considering the limitations of the airfield it was great to see a variety of international trainers, some interesting helicopters and of course - the real highlights the Bristol 188 and Fairey Delta outside. There *was* some sun as well in which to photograph them. The STEM hangar was also very interesting. The flying display, although nothing particularly special had some really nice items like the MiG-15, B-52 and Sea Vixen (albeit the last two cancelled!)

What they did wrong:

Cosford is unpleasantly crowded at the front and this could be mitigated very easily by moving some of the food stands and toilets further back - like they do at RIAT. I would personally prefer if they capped the attendance at a much lower number and held the show over two days - or charged more. If you compare this show to the majority of Duxford shows - it was far better at a far cheaper cost. I would happily pay £30.00 for this airshow!

Also - the Jaguar taxi display and large models were missed.


I will probably return next year, but may well do an international airshow instead. Although I feel the airshow team at Cosford *do* put in the effort to get a good flying display it is an unfortunate consequence of having fewer shows that virtually every UK airshow is close to selling out regardless of what is booked, which may instigate a 'race to the bottom'.

Hopefully i'm wrong and this year will prove to be a poor blip in what has been a recent run of really good Cosford airshows.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by Andover »

Nobody's mentioned any post-Shoreham restrictions at this show - was anything noticeable?

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by CJS »

MAA show isn't it? So there shouldn't have been any difference.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by B_Tank88 »

There have been points made saying the displays were distant (was the rubbish weather for me hindering visibility), would this have had anything to do with the Shoreham incident?

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by borismorris »

I was at Cosford on Sunday and felt that the displays were no further away. I thought the Mig display was rather flat (ie. Very little elevation change) but whether this was as a result of Shoreham or the low cloud I couldn't say.
The display in general was a bit disappointing in my opinion.
I may have missed any cancelation messages over the p.a. but didnt know the gnats and p51 had cancelled. The B-52 being clouded out whilst commentator talked nonsense summed up the day really.
The displays I particularly enjoyed were Typhoon, Apache, Chinook, Augusta, great war team, Laurens Pitts, Gazelles and Reds- albeit their flat display.
The show just felt very stop start though and with all Trainers on the bill it just lacked a couple more dynamic displays to keep the attention.
I will be there next year though, I just think a number of factors conspired against Cosford this year.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by AFKAMC »

Wissam24 wrote:
jason82wells wrote:
The public may not know the prices of these items prior to travelling to the event, but it's naive/stupid to think it's going to be cheap & tasty :snack:


Well, not in the UK. At the Danish Air Show (held on the same day), we had some really very good kebabs for 50 kroner each, about £5. Bear in mind Denmark is generally more expensive than the UK so an equivalent would be lower here. Very good value for money indeed, and at a free airshow as well. I'd like to know how that compares to other shows on the continent and whether it really is us on our island getting ripped off.


Oh no, you've done it now. Free air shows abroad, and with good value food too?

Half the people on here will be straight off to their nearest airport. Imagine the outrage when they realise they have to PAY for the flight...

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by Ian G »

davidjones533 wrote:Higher than normal prices are the same with any captive audience


At the theatre I worked at until very recently, they charged £2.50 for an ice cream. . . I figured they cost us 19p buying in bulk. £3 for bags of maltesers, minstrels etc. But it's a captive audience isn't it.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by Wissam24 »

AFKAMC wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:
jason82wells wrote:
The public may not know the prices of these items prior to travelling to the event, but it's naive/stupid to think it's going to be cheap & tasty :snack:


Well, not in the UK. At the Danish Air Show (held on the same day), we had some really very good kebabs for 50 kroner each, about £5. Bear in mind Denmark is generally more expensive than the UK so an equivalent would be lower here. Very good value for money indeed, and at a free airshow as well. I'd like to know how that compares to other shows on the continent and whether it really is us on our island getting ripped off.


Oh no, you've done it now. Free air shows abroad, and with good value food too?

Half the people on here will be straight off to their nearest airport. Imagine the outrage when they realise they have to PAY for the flight...


I never said my trip was free, unless I've missed something? I was comparing food prices.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by boff180 »

AFKAMC wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:
jason82wells wrote:
The public may not know the prices of these items prior to travelling to the event, but it's naive/stupid to think it's going to be cheap & tasty :snack:


Well, not in the UK. At the Danish Air Show (held on the same day), we had some really very good kebabs for 50 kroner each, about £5. Bear in mind Denmark is generally more expensive than the UK so an equivalent would be lower here. Very good value for money indeed, and at a free airshow as well. I'd like to know how that compares to other shows on the continent and whether it really is us on our island getting ripped off.


Oh no, you've done it now. Free air shows abroad, and with good value food too?

Half the people on here will be straight off to their nearest airport. Imagine the outrage when they realise they have to PAY for the flight...


(Not aimed directly at Cosford)
The point being made is that only in the UK must you pay quite a high ticket price to attend a military organised airshow and then also pay a high price for the food and drink inside too.

In the Netherlands - the KLu Open Dagen is free entry and the food is usually quite reasonably priced based on a ticket system.
In Belgium - the Belgian Air Force days 2016 are 18 euros (£14) entry and food is usually quite reasonable prices based on a ticket system (around 2.5 euro for a beer [£1.92]), you do have to pay for the toilets however.
The Danish show was free entry and food at a ok price for that country.
The Payerne show in 2014 were 23 swiss francs (£16) entry and the food, whilst limited choice, was very cheap as was the beer.
MCAS Miramar - free entry and the food/drink is a reasonable price with all proceeds from the food going to local causes.
NAS Point Mugu - as per Miramar
Nellis AFB - as per Miramar

Then by comparison....(I know two are no longer with us)

Cosford Airshow - £25 (33 euros) and food at prices being reported above - the proceeds from food pocketed by the vendors
Waddington - £24 advance (31 euros) and food at around twice th eprice of European comparable military airshows - the proceeds from food pocketed by the vendors.
Leuchars - £25 per ticket (33 euros) and food at around twice the price of European comparable military airshows - the proceeds from food pocketed by the vendors.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by capercaillie »

boff180 wrote:Cosford Airshow - £25 (33 euros) and food at prices being reported above - the proceeds from food pocketed by the vendors
Waddington - £24 advance (31 euros) and food at around twice th eprice of European comparable military airshows - the proceeds from food pocketed by the vendors.
Leuchars - £25 per ticket (33 euros) and food at around twice the price of European comparable military airshows - the proceeds from food pocketed by the vendors.


Not strictly true Andy, and if anything like the rates RIAT charge vendors for a stand space, I used to prepare accounts for one who attended with several drinks stands, there can be quite a lot paid back to the show.

That said if it was good weather it was his second biggest takings of the year for an event. Ooo-arrr. :wave:
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by Flying_Scotsman »

A few points to help those who are unsure about 2016 and what Airshows now are. I have tried to remember many pages of comments and address those my brain is still retaining:

Cosford is run under MAA (Military) rules. They are, broadly, unchanged from last year. For example, you will see the Chinook and Apache at 100 metres from the crowd at Cosford but at 150 metres at a civilian display - the CAA rules have changed.

The organisers were given all that the RAF had to offer in the way of display assets. The flypasts of the A400 and C130J were pleas from the organisers to the Squadron/Station Commanders and they bent in from pre-planned tasks - thus the one run through and the times they came. Anything else requires planning and higher authority agreement. The B52 (almost) flypast was, again, a call direct to the HQ asking for support.

The aircraft that flew were supporting the Organisers themes and so there were a number of different training aircraft. Aircraft supporting the Speed theme are few and far between this year. The Tunnan (a speed record holder) was not allowed to fly in the UK as the CAA are still ensuring that Swedish Display Authorisations are as good as or better than the UK equivalent; that's why they weren't there. The Mig was there but, again, the CAA auth for that pilot's DA only came on Thursday evening. Drizzle at Bristol and Yeovilton stopped the Gnats and the Sea Vixen getting to us. Those who enjoyed the Gazelle Squadron might like to know that their Display Authorisations were finally received by the pilots, after a high level approach to the CAA by the Show Organisers, on Friday morning.

There are technical reasons why the Jaguars are no longer able to 'display'. They were not taken out for any other reason and are a definite loss :sad:

As part of the new Safety Rules for ex-mil jet aircraft they are not allowed to fly aerobatic routines over land until further work is done. So, what you saw was their 'Flat Show'. It may have looked sedate as there are limitations as to what constitutes an aerobatic manoeuvre. Too much bank or pitch is not allowed. As in combat, you need to use the vertical to get around a turn quickly. The limitations, and the cloudbase, didn't allow much pitch-up for the jets so slower turns.

The organising team worked hard to obtain authorisation for the Apache and the AHF helos to fly together. Unfortunately, the Sioux was u/s on the day so only the AH pair :smile: Also, a long email trail to get the Harvard and Anson together for a photo op.

The programme only lasted until a little before 5pm as everything available had displayed. It should have run from 11:30 (A400 off task) until 17:25.

I don't believe that the Organisers have any control over the cost of the food. Is it significantly cheaper at other major event in the UK?

Those who know will already have seen the cancellation of a number of shows this year. The rule changes have also affected display crews and we have lost a few of those also. Maybe those in the crowd who were not happy with what they saw might look at the Show more favourably at the end of the season when a full year of the rules has passed. I think that the Cosford Team did a pretty good job with what was available on the day.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by RinkyDinky »

Here's one of a few reviews that are now appearing on the web of RAF Cosford's airshow last sunday. Quite favourable review.

Link to the review below.

http://www.air-shows.org.uk/2016/06/rev ... -air-show/

:biggrin:

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Post by PeterR »

Well I thought I'd try and reply to some of the comments on here without getting too irritated... :hide:




Flare Path wrote:Big changes required next year, in my opinion.

Such as?

Adamwilliams132 wrote:Well that was a bit of an anti climax. The Buff wasn't even visible. Very poor show this year.

The captain of ICER02 went as low as he was authorised to do so, unfortunately he was still in the cloud so had to return to RAF Fairford. Not much we can do about the weather sadly...

HeyfordDave111 wrote:What puzzles me is that there was no 'plan b' when things started to unravel.

'Plan B' is to re-orgainse the flying display as well as possible to get as many displays as possible, which the Flying Display Director did admirably. What would you suggest?

HeyfordDave111 wrote:Maybe Cosford needs a rest, a new team, a rethink, plan b's, a new direction?

A new orgainising team who can control the weather perhaps?

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Whether that was budgetary, down to targeting the wrong acts or as a result of date clashes is unknown.

We had the budget ready to buy in the SwAFHF to add some noise to the show when it became apparent that most of Europe's fast jet displays were heading to Denmark, however the CAA put the brakes on that plan. We did try and get the acts everyone wants but we don't always get what we want...

Wes_Howes wrote:The placement of the Fairey Delta and Avro 707 left much to be desired too.

Where would you have suggested they were parked?

Adamwilliams132 wrote:What happens to the fees due to be paid to display items that didn't turn up?

They don't get paid...

RS2 wrote:
Flare Path wrote:I think the culmination of how terrible this show was, is deeply rooted in the inclusion of the Rans S-6 Coyote II in the flying programme at a major military air event - the only RAF show.

Very sad for you maybe but very proud for many from the local communities and local pupils from Telford who helped build this plane under a Boeing sponsored education initiative. A plane that is also dedicated to a local girl who worked on the project and was tragically murdered, I think its significance certainly warranted the few minutes it took up in the flying display.

Hit the nail on the head. The UK has a massive shortage of engineers, hence why the air show puts such a huge focus on STEM. Given the detailed listed above, such as the fact it was built locally and named in honour of Georgia Williams (who was also an Air Cadet) and the fact it displayed at no cost to the Air Show, why wouldn't we include it in the flying programme?!

not_the_dj wrote:The commentry was poor and didn't give us any news about what was cancelled. Didn't hear a thing about the Sea Vixen, Gnats or Mustang. If that information was being given out on Facebook/Twitter then it really should have been announced to the crowd sat there waiting for them.

Dan O'Hagan wrote:There isn't (or shouldn't) be an airshow commentary position that doesn't have direct communication with the tower and display director. I'm certain Cosford will have made sure their team had the same, and will have been arranged for them well in advance.

I totally agree with you. I'm not exaggerating when I say I ran between the air traffic control tower and commentary tower at least 20 times with updated timings and news of cancellations to pass to the commentary team. They also have the Tower frequency to listen to and a landline to both the FDD and myself. I'm not sure why the updates that we were giving them weren't passed on by the commentators but it will be noted in the wash-up meetings.

jason82wells wrote:Buff was going to do two passes but both RAF heavies did one didn't they? What does that say about the effort the RAF put in?

Adamwilliams132 wrote:The RAF heavies doing one straight pass each is a bit poor, the Dutch herc did a better pass as it arrived for static.

The B-52 was authorised to conduct three flypasts, and we were planning for it to do so. The authorisation for the A400M & C-130J flypasts dictated that they were only permitted to perform a single flypast, out of our control sadly. I too would have liked them to do a couple of passes in differing configurations.

classicaviation wrote: If that is indicative of the budget they are given; then scrap Scampton now cause the RAF clearly aren't interested!

The RAF Cosford Air Show doesn't get issued any kind of budget from the MoD, and no public money is spent in the delivery of the event. We infact have to pay for UK military aircraft to participate...

classicaviation wrote:You do need some imagination with formations, set pieces, demos etc, and this year lacked any imagination what so ever.

So putting the Army Historic Flight's Scout and Soiux in formation with the Apache for a unique formation, which took a bloody lot of paperwork, lacks imagination? Likewise the unique Anson/Harvard pairing? Seen many Tutor threeships at other air shows recently too?

TYPHOON3 wrote:Before choosing a date for 2017 make sure it doesn't clash with any major overseas shows.

We have already liaised with a large number of European military partners to let them know our date, and discussed keeping our weekend free and avoiding clashes.

aknott68 wrote:It was disappointing to not see either the hercules or chinook as anniversary colour schemes.

We did ask, but there were serviceability and tasking issues that conspired against us.

Pat Murphy wrote:Bit surprised to hear the home team didn't taxi any of the Jags though. I thought that was very popular item last year, given the reaction around me when they started up :question:

The lack of Jaguar taxi demonstration was outside of our control sadly.

[rgmw]largie wrote:Atlas @ 11:35? Wtf. Really looking forward to that and just saw a small speck leaving.

The aircraft was on an operational tasking and 1135L was as late as they could slip the flypast without impacting on the mission. Ops come first!

st24 wrote:Seriously?! penned in by cones with (IIRC) a "RAF" Bentley coupe on one side and a tent on the other. Dreadful positioning- as was pretty much everything else really... :facepalm:

This pissed me off too, I had a number of discussions with ground staff in the RAF Village who moved the cones closer to the aircraft on three occasions across the weekend after I had our cone team re-postioned them back further away. However, which others statics did you consider 'dreadfully positioned'?

Luke28 wrote:I'm not jumping on something else to knock the show for here just for the sake of it but there was an Italian H-101 down for static display in the programme, I know discussions were on going with Italy, the organisers must have been pretty confident of it attending too include it in the programme and do a featured piece on it, shame that it didn't come to fruition.

Was on the cards for a while, coming up from Westlands at Yeovil, but sadly fell through in the weeks prior after the programme had gone to print. Had hoped no-one would notice!

strangelookingalien wrote:Although I feel the airshow team at Cosford *do* put in the effort to get a good flying display it is an unfortunate consequence of having fewer shows that virtually every UK airshow is close to selling out regardless of what is booked, which may instigate a 'race to the bottom'.

I can assure you that as long as I'm employed at RAF Cosford, the show will not adopt this mindset. All of us in the Air Show Office (and that's only 3 full time and 2 part time staff!) want to deliver the best show possible.

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