Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Photos of operational aircraft from bases, airports and "spotter" outings
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HeyfordDave111
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Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Well, where do i start?

We all rocked up to this event, with hopes in our heart, joy in the dry day with some sun, and the fact that we were hopefully going to be in the presence of the mighty Tonka. I think, giving a straw poll afterwards, that we were all pretty much after a few Tonka's to shoot in what is, after all, 'Tonka Town'.

Alas it wasnt to be as yesterday turned out to be the RAF party, with us 'enthusiasts' given a ticket at £50.00 per person to see them enjoying themselves.

what you see below is my usual candid pics of things like this, as really after you've shot......1 , yes 1, tornado, 1 spitfire, 1 F-35, and a visiting Brousasard.
i have not cleaned the dust bunnies as i cant really be arsed and yes we were that far away from the active.

No Tornado (4 flew and returned in a diamond formation so high they were closer to the moon than the earth, and the Black tailed tonka did some rolls and hard pull rounds that only those with a 500 mm lend and a 10x converter might have got.

When they all landed, there was no thought to bring them over to see us for a spot of 5 minute rolling photography as they came by, went round the back of the 35 and then back to their barns, nope, all turned off at the far end and home for tea and cake.

However, what really rankled here was the fact that we were second class citizens, with personel in the way a lot of the time, doing interviews, having cherry pickers moved into view so they could get the good shots, and the 'airship' present looked very pleased for himself oblivious to us all, but no doubt very pleased at the donation of £50 from each underling he's let on the field to shoot the 35 and Tonka.

So, 4 aircraft for £50.00, and far better pics to be had on the perimeter outside the airfield. I have suggested elsewhere and will in my mail that they, if they do care, and not just see us as a cash cow, need to offer value for money. Here they just fleeced us, full stop.

I venture that most of us felt our pants had been well and truly pulled down yesterday. (i know others came form further but with time off, a hotel, fuel, food and the entrance, i'm out £200.00 In perspective i could have had a return day flight to Krakow, visited the museum there, had some beer, and a meal and still have money back from £200.00

so here they are, un-doctored apart from a few levels, but it gives you an idea of what we got yesterday. Feel free to comment accordingly.
cheers
Dave

1)
Image9 by David Jones, on Flickr
2)
Image3 by David Jones, on Flickr
3)
Image2 by David Jones, on Flickr
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Image1 by David Jones, on Flickr
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Image8 by David Jones, on Flickr
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Image7 by David Jones, on Flickr
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Image6 by David Jones, on Flickr
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Image5 by David Jones, on Flickr
9)
Image4 by David Jones, on Flickr
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LN Strike Eagle
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

I'd seen some of the comments on Twitter last night, but "wow" this looks proper "Kris Kris Tofferson!".

If they had any clue or manners, they'll be working on getting you all back on base, for free, to shoot the operations at the threshold like they did in 2002. Could do it on the day of the big flypast so there's some guaranteed action.

I'd be asking for a refund. I don't care if it's destined for a charity, you paid for a day out and an experience and they failed you big time.

Sadly though, I fear this is a reflection on where the hobby is going these days. People see that there's a market for big ticket prices for very little content and they're going to want to get in on the act. Makes a RIAT ticket at £55 look like a steal.

Edit - look at the backdrops too. A bloody construction site! Did anyone at Marham give this more than a single seconds thought?
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

It's the RAF in 2018, what did you expect? An air arm which can't even be arsed to celebrate its 100th anniversary properly.

Three aeroplanes, poorly positioned, one with the covers on for £50? For that price I'd have expected a base tour, and the opportunity to shoot every airframe on the airfield, with a cup of tea afterwards. Perhaps even some aircrew in full kit posing for pictures.

The problem is that the Timeline, VTTS and COAP types have artificially set the pricing bar extortionately high. The RAF will have seen that there are people stupid enough to pay three figures to shoot a static Vulcan, or £60+for access to rotting museum hulks lit up with a few torches and figured that £50 sounds about right.

Did anyone have the balls on the day to complain, or demand a refund? Or were you all too meek and took what you were given?

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by toom317 »

Christ, I was peed off at only getting one Tucano, and watching 2 others peel away before they reached us, in the valley yesterday, but I had a much better day than you lot, that attended this abortion. That is an absolute disgrace the way you were all treated.
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by bigcrow »

It's a total disgace but really sums up this hobby nowadays. Photo shoots of static airframes, night shoots of mainly dead airfames with over inflated pricing. It's all gone a bit meh I'm afraid... :wat:

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by The Baron »

With it being Marham, a historic bomber station, and 617 Squadron being the first to stand up with the new toy I'm surprised that the Lancaster and Blenheim weren't in attendance instead of a poxy Spitfire.
Certainly smacks of minimum effort and I pity the poor saps who attended.
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Stagger2 »

WOW! :shock:
Did anybody make a note of the Crime Reference Number for this mass mugging? Incredibly anybody attending could've saved money by buying a ticket & NOT going!
The aforementioned cherry-picker is clearly a mighty perch for COAP & the Base Photographic Section, who could/should show some regard for other photographers. Without rubbing salt into soreness, I hope you all learn from this & allow your experience to avoid future 'Charity' rip-offs. :facepalm: Perhaps somebody from Marham will thank you for the free beer after the unwashed visit concluded? :snack:

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by capercaillie »

A rubbish Brouusard, three lousy parked RAF statics and a distant Tornado 4-ship for £50, with a load of tat in front and behind. And people are bemoaning the RIAT line up. Its all gone mad, mad I tell thee.

At least the static Tonka was the one with the RAF 100 sticker.

Was there any kind of pre-event promise of what you would get? As this is an utter pile of poo. :grin:
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by harkins »

Dave's pictures really do show quite well how poorly staged this event was. In fairness, they did eventually move some of the clutter and people to allow some slightly clearer shots, but not until a couple of hours of boredom had passed.

This has been discussed a bit more over on FC but if Dave doesn't object, I'll just give my brief summary of the day.

In the emails before the event we were told that there would be a Spitfire, a Tornado and an F-35 that we could photograph, a four-ship Tornado flypast and that there would also be base activity and a request for visitors had been made. So not really promising anything we didn't get. However, it did offer hope that we might well get a bit more than the three static aircraft mentioned.

We were taken onto the base in two groups shortly after the Tornados launched. I think the first group on just got to see the Spitfire arrive (which all logic suggests should have been the Lancaster) and get parked in front of the Lightning and Tornado. Then the RAF's PR event started where some invited guests and pro photographers also got in between us and the aircraft for a couple of hours. We had RAF100 flags erected whilst several staged finishes to the RAF100 baton relay were performed. Then they videoed a few interviews, again in front of the aircraft. All this time their cherry picker is maneuvering around. There is also all sorts of stuff piled up at the rear of the pan that I'm sure could have been moved and of course there was a huge civil engineering project behind that which obviously couldn't be moved. Also you can also see in Dave's photos, we were positioned absolutely miles away from the active runway and the HAS complex.

Whilst all that was going on there was the single high altitude pass of the four Tornados and a fifth Tornado whizzed around at what seemed like about 36'000 feet for five minutes. The flypast seemed pretty unannounced - word spread of a ETA but when they were spotted it was as if they were doing a strafing run (a very high one) as everyone was sent charging off trying to get out from under them. The fifth Tornado was apparently carrying an RAF photographer shooting the base, so was in no way intended to be for our benefit.

Once they'd landed miles away and behind Balfour Beatty's impressive collection of steam rollers, that was pretty much it. There was a briefing by a civilian police officer that seemed to be explaining that whilst around the perimeter base we should watch out for and report suspicious activity (no "Kris Kris Tofferson!" Sherlock?) and that we should not be racially prejudiced whilst doing so.

I'm not a tat collector but had heard that there would be stuff for sale. By the time I wandered into the VAS building the table of tat consisted of some medal/coin type things, some Squadron prints of the Tornado & Lightning and a pile of RAF100 cookbooks.

Thankfully they didn't keep everyone there until 5pm and started evacuating us in a minibus. Once most people had left (I was getting on the bus at this time) we were told that the Spitfire would depart in 30 minutes and do three low passes. A bit late for most.

I honestly feel they could have positioned the aircraft in better positions (even for their own PR peoples benefit) as there was plenty of tarmac and options all within close proximity. And it's hardly as if there was anything else going on (apart from construction work)

My other issues were that communication was poor. It really felt like we were a nuisance rather than invited/paying visitors. There was a real sense of being looked down on and mistrust. There didn't seem to be anyone there who was 'in charge' or checking on our welfare. At one point someone did get some steps out for an elevated position but, that lasted five minutes before someone appeared and had them removed as people might see into the F-35 cockpit. Then there was the rather unnecessary presence of the armed Regiment soldiers. Ok, security is expected but, two hundred checked enthusiasts with expensive cameras were there. They could have discreetly stood over to one side, just in case someone went mad and tried to gt past the cherry picker, TV crew, RAF athletes, RAF photographers, ground crew, and big cheeses to do something to the F-35. I'm sure even with today's cutbacks that the gunners must get enough practice to hit a target from around 50 meters.

Finally (I think), less of an issue with the event but a reflection of today's RAF is that I felt they were generally unfriendly and unwelcoming, I was surprised by how many different types of clothes/uniform were being worn, how relaxed and moochy about they were and how scruffy the base was. I was particularly struck by the bird crap all down the tail of the Canberra. I always thought that our services when not killing people or training to kill people were square bashing and cleaning and polishing things. Christ, even when I was in the Sea Cadets for a year many moons ago we were well schooled in cleaning, polishing and marching. It really felt to me like they've lost pride in themselves.

It was pretty clear a day at the fence would have been better both in terms of view and of not tarnishing my view of the service.

Sorry for the rambling rant but I am still pretty hacked off.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

A quite extraordinary post, which really paints the event, the RAF and civilian police in a very poor light.

Being told not to be "racially prejudiced" when reporting suspicious activity is just one aspect of several in this story that the newspapers would be all over. It plants a seed of doubt into someone's mind: "Well, it LOOKS suspicious, but am I being racist for reporting it?" This, at a base where an airman was almost abducted two years ago, and a stone's throw from Corrie McKeague's last reported whereabouts. "See it. Say it. Sort it" is what Americans are told when reporting suspicious activity. To suggest people should consider whether or not they are being subconsciously racist before reporting is a very dangerous message to put out.

As for the tat stalls, I'm assuming the cookbooks went unsold. Would have loved to have been in the meeting where someone said "what we need, to mark the 100th anniversary of a military force, is a cookbook". Embarrassing.

This sounds entirely in-keeping with the RAF100 recurring theme - half-hearted, lazy and wholly inappropriate for the centenary of a service that once took as much pride in itself and what it stood for as the public did.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Tommy »

#ThisHobby

#RAmeh

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The problem is that the Timeline, VTTS and COAP types have artificially set the pricing bar extortionately high. The RAF will have seen that there are people stupid enough to pay three figures to shoot a static Vulcan, or £60+for access to rotting museum hulks lit up with a few torches and figured that £50 sounds about right.


The greater fools, indeed.

How ironic that these so-called "enthusiast days" have done a considerable amount of harm to the hobby.

And then you look at the decent, well-run, and affordable "spotter" days and events on the continent, it's enough to make you weep. Or, just bin-off a jaunt to Suffolk and go there instead.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Fifty quid is inexcusable for an airshow, let alone a photoshoot with three interesting (well, two if you discount that plastic monstrosity with the covers on) aircraft.

But if people pay these prices, nothing will change.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by harkins »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:A quite extraordinary post, which really paints the event, the RAF and civilian police in a very poor light.

Being told not to be "racially prejudiced" when reporting suspicious activity is just one aspect of several in this story that the newspapers would be all over. It plants a seed of doubt into someone's mind: "Well, it LOOKS suspicious, but am I being racist for reporting it?" This, at a base where an airman was almost abducted two years ago, and a stone's throw from Corrie McKeague's last reported whereabouts. "See it. Say it. Sort it" is what Americans are told when reporting suspicious activity. To suggest people should consider whether or not they are being subconsciously racist before reporting is a very dangerous message to put out.

As for the tat stalls, I'm assuming the cookbooks went unsold. Would have loved to have been in the meeting where someone said "what we need, to mark the 100th anniversary of a military force, is a cookbook". Embarrassing.

This sounds entirely in-keeping with the RAF100 recurring theme - half-hearted, lazy and wholly inappropriate for the centenary of a service that once took as much pride in itself and what it stood for as the public did.

Dan, I want to clarify that I don't recall the officer actually saying directly that we must "not be racially prejudiced". It was my interpretation of one of the video presentations shown in the 'briefing' in which a man who appeared of middle eastern/east African origin was working in the catering industry and was initially made to appear suspicious with the aid of the narrator. The scene then features a man of white European appearance who then looks more suspicious than the first man. The first man is then the one who reports the suspicious activity. It's a minor observation from a bad day but I was just struck by what I felt was one of those clumsy attempts to ensure that there could be no accusation of stereotyping or something. I expect that had it been twenty odd years ago it would have been an Irishman reporting a Yorkshire man for suspicious behavior in the video. Rather than any subtle content of the video, the whole presentation was needless filler for a lousy event.

I certainly didn't see anyone with a copy of the cookbook. I'm sure it's cheaper on Amazon anyway.

I still can't believe that they can't even be bothered wiping the bird excrement off the tail of the Canberra and adding a small piece of those anti bird spikes on it. They must really not be fond of it as they haven't even put a silly sticker on it! A few people were quite excited to photograph the Victor too. I didn't notice any dirt on that but it wasn't really worth photographing as it was situated in a small piece of woodland.

I guess the worst thing is that I don't believe that anyone complained. We certainly grumbled to each other and maybe some of that was overheard, but not by anyone that counts. There's talk of emails and even letters being sent on FC but I doubt many will and I'd be flabbergasted if it had any effect anyway. Despite all this I fully expect that if another event is ever organised at Marham it will be oversubscribed as people hope that they've learnt the lessons from this one. Maybe they will. Who knows?

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by st24 »

harkins wrote:In the emails before the event we were told that there would be a Spitfire, a Tornado and an F-35 that we could photograph, a four-ship Tornado flypast and that there would also be base activity and a request for visitors had been made. So not really promising anything we didn't get. However, it did offer hope that we might well get a bit more than the three static aircraft mentioned.


Well I find it hard to believe that anyone would lose 50 notes for that let alone what actually happened :wall: At least it didn't rain.

The RAF are absolutely clueless at this type of thing to a point of hysterical embarrassment. There was a period from the late '80s to the early noughties when someone, somewhere made sense and put on some cracking photocalls at various bases up and down the country. I really don't know what happened but ultimately its lead to this utter shambles that surely represents the lowest point of RAF /"enthusiast" interaction ever. And in the year when they should be falling over themselves to big the service up. Truly awful.
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by harkins »

st24 wrote:
harkins wrote:In the emails before the event we were told that there would be a Spitfire, a Tornado and an F-35 that we could photograph, a four-ship Tornado flypast and that there would also be base activity and a request for visitors had been made. So not really promising anything we didn't get. However, it did offer hope that we might well get a bit more than the three static aircraft mentioned.

Well I find it hard to believe that anyone would lose 50 notes for that let alone what actually happened :wall: At least it didn't rain.

I agree and I'd not have paid for that if I'd known. The problem is that places were limited and we know demand is usually high and you have to get in quick before it's too late. I think that most people were just hoping for access to more Tornados. It's hardly unreasonable on the RAF's only Tornado base and in their final months of service. A couple more to photograph, maybe the special tailed one with the RAF100 tailed one and in a reasonable position. A position on the airfield where we could photograph any either landing or departing and taxiing. I don't think anyone was expecting loads of activity as we all know the situation. The F-35's were merely a bonus and seeing any actually move really was just a hope.

My only previous experience of this kind of event was at the RAF Valley Aviation Society day in 2015. There was little or no information published ahead of that event and there wasn't masses there but, it was very well run with a lovely atmosphere and they did get 4 Belgian F-16s in, flypasts from RAF Tornado, Typhoon and a Hercules. They had a Hawk, King Air and a Sea King on the pan with a lovely background and no clutter or obstruction. And the base Hawks were active throughout the day. And it was certainly less than fifty quid!

The whole thing puts me in mind of those Christmas Wonderlands we hear about every Christmas where it's a rubbish Santa in a garden shed with tinsel and a couple of 6ft elves padding about with a deer in need of help from the RSPCA and the papers are then full of stories of irate parents that can't get a refund. A scam.

The one positive thing is that I'm pleasantly surprised by the reaction of those not there. I have to admit that I expected nothing but schadenfreude but the community seems to have shared dismay. I think that the reaction is a perhaps a bit different owing to this being an RAF oraganised event and not a private event. The RAF should have some morals and some pride.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by effects »

The trouble is you need an 'enthusiast' involved in planning these events, a lot of Officers in the RAF firmly believe you will be happy to see a couple of aircraft whizzing around and some aircrew getting in and out of jets(this view has been around for decades), this 'charity' event will have ticked a box in someone's career path and set them on the way to promotion. Unfortunately the more people are willing to be 'had over' the more these events flourish. So save your cash and don't go to these half-arsed schemes.
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by FTS »

The RAF should have some morals and some pride.


When I left that organisation in March after 12 years, there were these things called 'core values', 2 of which were respect and excellence. Either there's been a complete change in standards in the space of a few months or Marham seriously dropped the ball, big time!

Going on a bit of thread drift, at the Cosford show, I felt utterly embarrassed by the conduct of certain 'Airmen' towards the public. Two examples, incorrect signs of Typhoon and F35 being placed next to a Harrier and Jaguar, which the guys having a mothers meeting between the aircraft thought was highly hilarious every time a member of the public pointed it out and asked what the aircraft actually were. Why I as a now member of the public had to strongly encourage one of the trainees to get off his backside and move the bloody things because it made the RAF look (insert word of choice), instead of ANYONE in uniform making that decision already, baffled me! The other was a family asking 2 airmen what pitot tubes were and if they were for refuelling, and getting a shrug and a grunt "I dunno" for a reply before walking off. At least I was able to answer their question with a professional answer and try and save the RAF some face by saying I used to wear that uniform.

I look at this event and read some of the comments on Facebook and Fighter Control about what people overhead serving personnel saying and their conduct towards the public and am filled with utter disgust! I used to work on the RAF Presentation Team and did a spell in recruitment. I loved going out meeting the public and showcasing how great the RAF can be when it gets it right! I didn't feel like I was presenting a corporate script, I loved my job and thought it was great! Unfortunately I look at this year, the RAF's 100 anniversary, and events like this and am utterly embarrassed to say I served and am glad I got out when I did.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by disgruntled »

It looks poor and there is no doubt that those who paid their money and took their chance lost out this time. But I’ll say it again and again and again; get off of the backs of the guys on the ground. Have you ever given a thought about how they feel having to be dragged out to babysit a group of self entitled spotters!
If everyone knows the RAF are so pants why gamble £50?
People criticising others who go where they themselves fear to tread is disgusting and shows the nasty self entitled side of this hobby.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

disgruntled wrote:It looks poor and there is no doubt that those who paid their money and took their chance lost out this time. But I’ll say it again and again and again; get off of the backs of the guys on the ground. Have you ever given a thought about how they feel having to be dragged out to babysit a group of self entitled spotters!
If everyone knows the RAF are so pants why gamble £50?
People criticising others who go where they themselves fear to tread is disgusting and shows the nasty self entitled side of this hobby.

If they can't be arsed to "babysit" the people they're charging large sums of money to, then perhaps they shouldn't be hosting these events in the first place? If you invite people to visit, it's good manners to treat them as if they're welcome - that's true of a house visit, let alone an event to which you are asking a tidy sum for admission.
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

disgruntled wrote:It looks poor and there is no doubt that those who paid their money and took their chance lost out this time. But I’ll say it again and again and again; get off of the backs of the guys on the ground. Have you ever given a thought about how they feel having to be dragged out to babysit a group of self entitled spotters!
If everyone knows the RAF are so pants why gamble £50?
People criticising others who go where they themselves fear to tread is disgusting and shows the nasty self entitled side of this hobby.


You think paying £50 and expecting better than the rubbish that was offered is being "self-entitled"? It sounds like RAF personnel were more interested in taking selfies than any "baby sitting".

Your beloved RAF took money for something and failed to deliver a product worthy of either the price or the RAF's once good name.

Those who went are certainly entitled. Entitled to complain and ask for their money back.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by jalfrezi »

disgruntled wrote:It looks poor and there is no doubt that those who paid their money and took their chance lost out this time. But I’ll say it again and again and again; get off of the backs of the guys on the ground. Have you ever given a thought about how they feel having to be dragged out to babysit a group of self entitled spotters!
If everyone knows the RAF are so pants why gamble £50?
People criticising others who go where they themselves fear to tread is disgusting and shows the nasty self entitled side of this hobby.


I'm surprised you haven't blamed this on the civil servants!

Dragged out to babysit? It was for charity - if that's not incentive enough then maybe the fact their wages are being paid by the tax payer is enough? I appreciate that you don't like criticism of the RAF, but this fiasco is purely down to the station, and shows a massive amount of disrespect to the 'self entitled spotters'.....

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by harkins »

disgruntled wrote:It looks poor and there is no doubt that those who paid their money and took their chance lost out this time. But I’ll say it again and again and again; get off of the backs of the guys on the ground. Have you ever given a thought about how they feel having to be dragged out to babysit a group of self entitled spotters!
If everyone knows the RAF are so pants why gamble £50?
People criticising others who go where they themselves fear to tread is disgusting and shows the nasty self entitled side of this hobby.

I don't really like your nasty generalising of all the people there. Babysitting entitled enthusiasts? Keyboard warrior hey? I know of one ex serviceman there who has trodden in places most would not and he was unimpressed by it all too. And besides, I haven't even seen anything getting on the backs of those on the ground. It's all aimed at whomever organised this event.

People were invited to attend the event for a price and then treated with some disdain. Not by every person there of course but in overall effect.

The bottom line is that if any organisation don't want to do something properly then they just shouldn't bother. It was only ten days before the event that we were told what to expect and as already said, we got most of it. I was excited waiting to go on base knowing more or less what we'd get. The big issue is how it was served. Would you be happy to pay for a nice meal in a good restaurant if you were then seated in a store cupboard and had it served in a dogs bowl?

Edit; clearly it's not just me who finds your defence of this debacle weak and desperate.

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Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by K213 »

From the comments and pictures it looks as if was a very poorly organised event and extremely bad PR for the RAF; in some respects it makes me feel ashamed of the service I spent 35 years proudly serving in and now as an ex Senior Officer illustrates how standards appear to have slipped from those I expected of the personnel under my command.

An opportunity missed by the RAF.
Last edited by K213 on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

reheat module
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Joined: Wed 01 Apr 2009, 9:53 pm
Location: Lincs

Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by reheat module »

The question is 'If this the way ahead, has learning taken place?'
Put another way, it ain't going to get any better, so is it worth attending in the future?
Canon systems

disgruntled
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed 11 Dec 2013, 12:16 pm

Re: Marham Enthusiasts Day 21st June 2018

Post by disgruntled »

The fact is the RAF isn’t there to entertain.

People chose to spend £50 even though the general consensus on here is that the service can’t give two hoops about the “enthusiasts”. Said enthusiasts then moan when they got what many on here would say they saw coming. The simple answer is don’t go!

I do have sympathy with the comments from those that went that they feel short changed. On the face of it they certainly look as if they were. But, as someone also pointed out it was for charity therefore should be seen as a voluntary donation.

And as for the ridiculous comment regarding “my” RAF. What a pathetic condescending thing to say. Yes I am a serving member of UKAF but no I am not RAF. The constant bashing of service personnel and in particular the RAF I find offensive in the extreme, especially when it comes from a fourth rate commentator and 10th rate journalist who can never resist making unprofessional jibes at anyone or anything that won’t fall in line to his view of what is right.

Mr O’Hagan I would challenge you to spend time actually learning about the people and organisations you so readily deride. When I rant (yes I admit they are rants) it is always from a position of either first hand knowledge, or an informed understanding of the situation or from empathy with those in the position. I challenge you to be able to say the same.

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