RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Discussions regarding historic aircraft, restoration and preservation etc
cg_341
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by cg_341 »

Quite a strong view for your second post on the forum.

And by quite strong, I mean well worthy of being your last!?

FarnboroJohn
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by FarnboroJohn »

DerekF wrote:
Tue 14 Dec 2021, 6:56 pm
3 out of 4 are women. Well there you go. What were they thinking. Thankfully attitudes have moved on from the 1940s.
'Ere, steady on Derek: I'm sure there were people in the 1940s who appreciated the WAAFs in the radar stations and sector control rooms and parachute packing sections; the ATA delivery ladies; the women turning out Spitfires and Lancasters in the factories: who would those appreciative people have been? Oh yes, the RAF. But you knew that.

Sadly some attitudes seem stuck some time before the 1940s...

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DerekF
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by DerekF »

Apologies. Sarcasm doesn't come across well.

FarnboroJohn
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by FarnboroJohn »

DerekF wrote:
Tue 14 Dec 2021, 9:16 pm
Apologies. Sarcasm doesn't come across well.
No worries: I just thought the other poster might like something more to chew on! :thumbsup_tone1:

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iainpeden
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by iainpeden »

Deleted
Last edited by iainpeden on Wed 06 Apr 2022, 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Mike »

I wonder if any major art museums are run by people who are not subject matter experts, without a deep academic knowledge of art history and therefore no true appreciation of the objects under their care.

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HeyfordDave111
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Oh, thats a deffo.

Dealt with the guys and gals in London in overall Charge of the national railway collection a few years back, regarding getting an item repainted and renovated,at no cost to the 'custodians'. All was agreed and signed off, when at the 11th hour this project was scrapped due to the 'artifact' (their words) being scheduled to have this attention in 2024 so no requirement for it to be renovated before hand.

Meanwhile it sits outside rusting and deteriorating at the same location.

Loved the use of the words by them (Article, Artifact, Item, Exhibit etc)
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capercaillie
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by capercaillie »

8674planes wrote:
Mon 13 Dec 2021, 6:13 pm
There is also a Transfers/loan list that was published today by RAFM also.

https://t.co/mUv7qR3J4v

Gloster Meteor F.8mod
Panavia Tornado Prototype
Lockheed Ventura Mk.II
Percival Pembroke C.1
British Aerospace Jetstream T.1
Vickers Varsity Mk.I
Boulton Paul Sea Balliol T.21
Bristol Type 188
Cody Kite
Comper C.L.A.7 Swift
Consolidated PBY-6A Catalina
De Havilland Venom FB.4
Hawker-Siddeley Argosy C.1
Supermarine Spitfire LF.XVIE
Vickers Valetta C.3
Are we seriously talking about the only military Argosy left in the UK being moved around? That will do it the wonder of good. On one hand we get its not an RAF airframe so we shouldn't have it, the next they are looking to ship out perfectly good RAF airframes. But we have an MH-53, F-111, MiG21 etc taking up space?

They are in charge of unique machines like the Bristol 188 and prone Meteor and probably shouldn't have responsibility for a shopping trolley.
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aviationanoraks
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by aviationanoraks »

If the 188 does move, I’m hoping it will be to the excellent Aerospace Bristol.
Can’t be a more appropriate home than that, and there is certainly enough room in the Concorde building for it (if they can get it in).

Ryan.
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Ryan. »

porphyrogenitos wrote:
Tue 14 Dec 2021, 7:36 pm
If you really don't think that when an organisation becomes progressively dominated by women rather than men its characteristics and priorities don't change radically then I think you are being less than honest. There is even a name for this process, its called feminisation and one that is widely advertised by feminists themselves as a good thing. Google the feminisation of education and you will get thousands of responses. That is why I am saying the drastic change in the sex ratio is relevant among the museum leadership. The disposal and lack of interest in the military hardware of the museum is very much part of this process.
🤨 Congratulations on being one of the odder posts I've read here for quite some time.

And it goes without saying, what you've said here is complete nonsense.
Last edited by Ryan. on Mon 20 Dec 2021, 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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K5054NZ
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by K5054NZ »

porphyrogenitos wrote:
Tue 14 Dec 2021, 7:36 pm
If you really don't think that when an organisation becomes progressively dominated by women rather than men its characteristics and priorities don't change radically then I think you are being less than honest.
I challenge you to look at the RNZAF Museum/Air Force Museum of New Zealand under the late Thérèse Angelo and the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre under Jane Orphan as case studies contradicting that bizarre diatribe.
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Andyph
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Andyph »

I have to say I don't care - really.

Not every aeroplane has to be preserved.

I think because aircraft are comparatively easy to preserve its lulls people into thinking they all should.
In fact if you compare say the preservation of UK military aircraft (most types ) against Royal Navy ships – (almost none!).
I find it hard to quibble about the national museum letting go of a few lesser types most of which they have similar examples.
Personally I’d trade a few aircraft collections to see a WW1 or WW2 British Battleship or carrier!

I do agree with chopping the floats on the Sunderland is sacrilege – FFS!
and also a dislike of modern museums having less exhibits inside (not just aircraft museums!) also has anyone noticed libraries seem to have more space and less books in them these days – why?

This is against a background of just finding out an aircraft I used to instruct in has found its way onto display in a museum – I suppose I’ll go and have a look sometime but personally I prefer to watch aircraft fly.

Above is a personal view – feel free to disagree!

Andyph
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Andyph »

K5054NZ wrote:
Sun 19 Dec 2021, 12:25 am
porphyrogenitos wrote:
Tue 14 Dec 2021, 7:36 pm
If you really don't think that when an organisation becomes progressively dominated by women rather than men its characteristics and priorities don't change radically then I think you are being less than honest.
I challenge you to look at the RNZAF Museum/Air Force Museum of New Zealand under the late Thérèse Angelo and the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre under Jane Orphan as case studies contradicting that bizarre diatribe.
I'd suggest Jane's husband might run the ship at Omaka! so this doesn't really count!

Dan213
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Dan213 »

Andyph wrote:
Sun 19 Dec 2021, 8:36 am
K5054NZ wrote:
Sun 19 Dec 2021, 12:25 am
porphyrogenitos wrote:
Tue 14 Dec 2021, 7:36 pm
If you really don't think that when an organisation becomes progressively dominated by women rather than men its characteristics and priorities don't change radically then I think you are being less than honest.
I challenge you to look at the RNZAF Museum/Air Force Museum of New Zealand under the late Thérèse Angelo and the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre under Jane Orphan as case studies contradicting that bizarre diatribe.
I'd suggest Jane's husband might run the ship at Omaka! so this doesn't really count!
This series of posts are the most ridiculous thing I've read on any forum, let alone just this one. This is blatant sexism and should have no place here

Andyph
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Andyph »

Dan213 wrote:
Sun 19 Dec 2021, 3:03 pm
Andyph wrote:
Sun 19 Dec 2021, 8:36 am
K5054NZ wrote:
Sun 19 Dec 2021, 12:25 am
porphyrogenitos wrote:
Tue 14 Dec 2021, 7:36 pm
If you really don't think that when an organisation becomes progressively dominated by women rather than men its characteristics and priorities don't change radically then I think you are being less than honest.
I challenge you to look at the RNZAF Museum/Air Force Museum of New Zealand under the late Thérèse Angelo and the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre under Jane Orphan as case studies contradicting that bizarre diatribe.
I'd suggest Jane's husband might run the ship at Omaka! so this doesn't really count!
This series of posts are the most ridiculous thing I've read on any forum, let alone just this one. This is blatant sexism and should have no place here
Thanks for morality lesson– but you might find I wasn’t in the slightest being sexist – just pointing out that while Jane is curator, her husband Graham has and is the driving force behind the museum.

Brenden S
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Brenden S »

Us Aussies are more than happy to bring back the RAAF Hudson, and all the other RAAF aircraft you have over there

farnboroughrob
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by farnboroughrob »

Brenden S wrote:
Fri 31 Dec 2021, 6:15 am
Us Aussies are more than happy to bring back the RAAF Hudson, and all the other RAAF aircraft you have over there
I had a good look at the Hudson a couple of days ago, I had no idea of its combat history. That sort of deal would not actually bother me that much. I would also be happy if some of the Luftwaffe aircraft went to a German museum, but as a minmum keeping the Ju87 and BF109 . The RAFM has really lost its way. I can understand some disposals but you want to get rid of the only surviving RAF Argosy? Thats a main stream type not something niche like the reasearch aircraft, its crazy.

Georgeconna
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Georgeconna »

farnboroughrob wrote:
Fri 31 Dec 2021, 8:58 am
Brenden S wrote:
Fri 31 Dec 2021, 6:15 am
Us Aussies are more than happy to bring back the RAAF Hudson, and all the other RAAF aircraft you have over there
I had a good look at the Hudson a couple of days ago, I had no idea of its combat history. That sort of deal would not actually bother me that much. I would also be happy if some of the Luftwaffe aircraft went to a German museum, but as a minmum keeping the Ju87 and BF109 . The RAFM has really lost its way. I can understand some disposals but you want to get rid of the only surviving RAF Argosy? Thats a main stream type not something niche like the reasearch aircraft, its crazy.
The German stuff is quite a big draw to the Museum, Makes it all the more interesting. They are part of RAF History in there representation of the BOB Surely. I don't think a few Plastic Models will have quite the same impact.

The 188 was and is a massive draw to Cosford when I went there along with all the other exhibits. It is a strange way of thinking they seem to have.

The less interesting Stuff the less chance People we will bothered going.
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nuuumannn
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by nuuumannn »

Georgeconna wrote:
Fri 31 Dec 2021, 1:06 pm
farnboroughrob wrote:
Fri 31 Dec 2021, 8:58 am
Brenden S wrote:
Fri 31 Dec 2021, 6:15 am
Us Aussies are more than happy to bring back the RAAF Hudson, and all the other RAAF aircraft you have over there
I had a good look at the Hudson a couple of days ago, I had no idea of its combat history. That sort of deal would not actually bother me that much. I would also be happy if some of the Luftwaffe aircraft went to a German museum, but as a minmum keeping the Ju87 and BF109 . The RAFM has really lost its way. I can understand some disposals but you want to get rid of the only surviving RAF Argosy? Thats a main stream type not something niche like the reasearch aircraft, its crazy.
The German stuff is quite a big draw to the Museum, Makes it all the more interesting. They are part of RAF History in there representation of the BOB Surely. I don't think a few Plastic Models will have quite the same impact.

The 188 was and is a massive draw to Cosford when I went there along with all the other exhibits. It is a strange way of thinking they seem to have.

The less interesting Stuff the less chance People we will bothered going.
The Hudson was bought by the museum at the Strathallan auction back in 1981. the German/Axis stuff is all ex AHB, which its airframes were given to the RAFM for care in 1998 - this was the same with Black 6 and the LVG when they were flying, those two were on 5-year loan agreements with their operators. Their disposal would be a bit more difficult since they are MoD airframes.

The thing is, the RAFM has the largest collection of vintage and historic aircraft in the country - there is a big possibility that whatever gets moved out will be replaced with something else from within the collection that isn't currently on display. Let's not forget the Hampden, Wellington and Lysander currently undergoing restoration at Cosford. There is a huge toybox for the museum to choose from and limited display space. As for more interactive "hands-on" stuff, I doubt it. They cost a lot of money to install and maintain. Interactives are only beneficial to museums if they can justify their existence and the RAFM has to maintain costs at an affordable level. The museum could do with updating its display boards to match the audio/visual stuff that has been installed at Hendon. It's primarily funded by the MoD and private investment, especially since as a national museum entry is free.

The problem is that the museum has to cater to its largest demographic, which, I'm sorry to say, having worked in aviation museums for nine years (I'm an aircraft engineer by trade, having spent over 11 years as a ramp tramp at my local airport), is families that don't necessarily have any knowledge or connection to aviation, at a ratio on average of 75 percent of annual visitor number. Surveys conducted at the RAFM over a period of a few years revealed that self-declared enthusiasts make up less than six percent of annual visitors to the museum. This means that we, as enthusiasts and I put myself in that category need to go to these museums more often to increase our representation and therefore our say and sway in decision-making processes, rather than stand on our soapboxes and accuse these people of making decisions that don't suit us.

It's simple. If we don't go out there and actively support these organisations they become what we don't want them to become. They need our support, so go and support them.

I'm not going to speak on behalf of the RAFM management as I'm sure they can justify themselves, but I know the aircraft curator at Hendon and he knows what he is talking about- he's certainly not merely a "museum person" having been personally involved in the restoration of perhaps the UK's most significant surviving WW2 aircraft. The staff at Hendon on the whole are professionals who are very good at what they do, regardless of the decisions they make.

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Tommy
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Tommy »

Well, this is some good news at least:


FarnboroJohn
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Tommy wrote:
Thu 03 Mar 2022, 1:59 pm
Well, this is some good news at least:

Heaves a huge sigh of relief. I know it's been something of a mascot to the Chinook force but a pitcher can go too often to the well. This is an airframe with a history that can stand comparison with R5868 and I am very glad to see it will finally be on its way to Cosford.

Notwithstanding its subsequent contributions to RAF campaigning I should like it to be displayed in its original colours, but I guess we have to wait and see.

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Professor_M
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Professor_M »

There's a mention of Mustang (composite of parts, wears 413573) to Australia in the Just Jane News thread, it will be joined by Vampire FB5 (WA346).

https://www.facebook.com/HunterFighterC ... mgDSUH58kl

The list of aircraft in store at Cosford is quite eclectic, hopefully we'll see more of them on display soon (ideally in the UK) - it'd be great to have the two-seater Avro 707 on show.
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Professor_M
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Professor_M »

For the sake of trying to keep track of where these disposals end up, I shall add here that 707 C (The two-seater) WZ744 is now at Woodford.

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Professor_M
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by Professor_M »

https://www.key.aero/article/experiment ... ng-cosford

This article suggests that the Bristol 188 was offered to Aerospace Bristol, but the offer was declined.

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NAM Updater
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Re: RAF Museum Airframe Disposal List

Post by NAM Updater »

This news item may add some context to the Bristol 188 comment above: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64651465
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