B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

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XO-1
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B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by XO-1 »

So here's something that's been bugging me for a while (nearly 40 years in fact :astonished:) - back in the early 80s, when I was a regular planespotter, I remember seeing what appeared to be a B-24 Liberator(!), in WW2-era USAAF olive drab/neutral gray colours, flying in the vicinity of Edinburgh Airport on more than one occasion. I've finally got round to digging out my spotting notebook from that time, and I have two entries for it, one on 3rd October 1982 and another on 22nd November the same year.

I've tried googling for the movements of preserved B-24s in the 1980s but haven't turned up much. Does anyone here know of a B-24 that was flying in the UK in 1982, or was I hallucinating?! :crazy_face:

5944
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by 5944 »

https://www.diamondlil.org/history
In 1971, AM927 was painted in the colors of the 98th Bomb Group and given the name “Diamond Lil”. During the next 20 years 'Diamond Lil' traveled extensively throughout the United States - and made an Atlantic crossing to England in 1992.
There's a few photos online of it at Norwich and Boscombe Down, but I can't find anything obvious for Scotland. Would make sense though, if it was heading home later in the year.

JonMann
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by JonMann »

5944 wrote:
Fri 06 May 2022, 6:09 am
https://www.diamondlil.org/history
In 1971, AM927 was painted in the colors of the 98th Bomb Group and given the name “Diamond Lil”. During the next 20 years 'Diamond Lil' traveled extensively throughout the United States - and made an Atlantic crossing to England in 1992.
There's a few photos online of it at Norwich and Boscombe Down, but I can't find anything obvious for Scotland. Would make sense though, if it was heading home later in the year.
10 years difference to what the OP is looking for as she was over in 92 and the OP is looking for something in 82 and I believe Diamond Lil was in her Desert scheme when she was over in the UK anyway (saw it at Duxford).

As to the original question, couldn't help you with specifics, but could it have been one of the Indian B-24s transiting through the UK back to the US for display. Looking at Wiki (though not always reliable) the only one that seems to have been in the UK at that time was the now Collings Foundation one, when it was owned by Doug Arnold.

5944
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by 5944 »

Good point! Got into a bit of a wormhole trying to figure it out - not the best idea when coming off a night shift.

GeeRam
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by GeeRam »

JonMann wrote:
Fri 06 May 2022, 6:53 am
As to the original question, couldn't help you with specifics, but could it have been one of the Indian B-24s transiting through the UK back to the US for display. Looking at Wiki (though not always reliable) the only one that seems to have been in the UK at that time was the now Collings Foundation one, when it was owned by Doug Arnold.
B-24 44-44052/KH191 arrived in the UK in 1982 in a dismantled state inside a Heavylift Belslow. It left UK 4 years later in the same state, in multiple pieces and was delivered to Tom Reilly's place in Florida for restoration to airworthy.

I think the only two ex-IAF B-24 that flew into the UK, was the one gifted to the RAFM by the IAF (44-50206/KH751) and was made airworthy and ferried to UK, arriving in in summer of 1974.
The only other one which was made airworthy and ferried from India was 44-44272/KH401 which arrived at Duxford after a ferry flight from India the previous year, 1973. It stayed at Duxford for 2 years before under taking a ferry flight across the Atlantic to the USA in 1975. Its now owned by Kermit Weeks.

I'm pretty sure these were the last two B-24's to fly in UK skies until the arrival of the CAF example for their tour in 1992.

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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by Mike »

The only other twin-tailed radial-engined Bomber I can think of that would have been flying in the U.K. around this time would be one of the Hannover Street B-25s

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starbuck
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by starbuck »

Not looking to insult anyone's spotting capabilities buy maybe a Shackleton?

ArabJazzie
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by ArabJazzie »

XO-1 wrote:
Thu 05 May 2022, 11:06 pm
So here's something that's been bugging me for a while (nearly 40 years in fact :astonished:) - back in the early 80s, when I was a regular planespotter, I remember seeing what appeared to be a B-24 Liberator(!), in WW2-era USAAF olive drab/neutral gray colours, flying in the vicinity of Edinburgh Airport on more than one occasion. I've finally got round to digging out my spotting notebook from that time, and I have two entries for it, one on 3rd October 1982 and another on 22nd November the same year.

I've tried googling for the movements of preserved B-24s in the 1980s but haven't turned up much. Does anyone here know of a B-24 that was flying in the UK in 1982, or was I hallucinating?! :crazy_face:
Hello XO-1,
As a member of ScotAvNet, i saw Mike Branford of that and other parishes copy this message there to widen the search for you. As things like this pique my interest, i naturally put forward some suggestions, then remembered i was a member here, so here are my thoughts and that of others with credit to SCAN, eL aRef, Alistair McBean and Paul Wiggings. While i hate to call into question your sighting, it is looking likely that you didnt see a Liberator, but i dont think the colours of some of the following tie in either.

My first thought of course was Diamond Lil, but i missed that 10 years later, and as noted here, that was Desert colours anyway. Then i thought of this being a Mitchell of some description and wonder if anyone else can confirm someone was using these for Photo Mapping at the time which might mean that they would not necessarily be operating into a Scottish Airfield. Having seen at least one(N9089Z?) at North Weald, i seem to remember someone using Mitchells as film camera ships but dont know the time frame, again, anyone confirm that? The Hanover street link adds to my thoughts what you saw was a Mitchell, but how long did these hang around after filming and when/where did they go home?

The Strathallan Lanc was noted flying around that time by one, but discounted by another, and of course the RAF were operating Shackleton AEW2s at the time, which from some angles would look more like a Liberator than a Mitchell. I also put up that Loganair had a Beech 18 in use, but that was tucked up at East Fortune 5 years before your sighting, but other airframes may have been operating at the time.

There was mention of an Atlantic visiting Edinburgh on 22/11/82, but that looks nothing like a Liberator and the general consensus is you saw a Shackleton.
Arabest,
Geoff.
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Stagger2
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by Stagger2 »

Amazingly, in the absence of factual confirmation of WWII types flying in that time period the Shackleton is a good call! It is of the WWII era in design, commonly mis-identified as a Lancaster or other WWII aircraft. Was based in Scotland near to the OP's location & was definitely "neutral gray" (sic) as noted by the OP. Any reference to a 'camouflage paint scheme' can be easily explained by the patchy/faded appearance of AEW2 WL747 prior to it's Major o/h & repaint. Best seen in the linked example of WL756 shown below. The real giveaway between a B24 & AEW2 is of course the tricycle u/c on the former with the latter AEW2 being a 'taildragger'.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ckr.com%2f
Before & After examples https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... t=0&sim=11
With due Credit to the Photographer of each image.

FarnboroJohn
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by FarnboroJohn »

ArabJazzie wrote:
Sat 07 May 2022, 10:09 am
XO-1 wrote:
Thu 05 May 2022, 11:06 pm
So here's something that's been bugging me for a while (nearly 40 years in fact :astonished:) - back in the early 80s, when I was a regular planespotter, I remember seeing what appeared to be a B-24 Liberator(!), in WW2-era USAAF olive drab/neutral gray colours, flying in the vicinity of Edinburgh Airport on more than one occasion. I've finally got round to digging out my spotting notebook from that time, and I have two entries for it, one on 3rd October 1982 and another on 22nd November the same year.

I've tried googling for the movements of preserved B-24s in the 1980s but haven't turned up much. Does anyone here know of a B-24 that was flying in the UK in 1982, or was I hallucinating?! :crazy_face:
Hello XO-1,
As a member of ScotAvNet, i saw Mike Branford of that and other parishes copy this message there to widen the search for you. As things like this pique my interest, i naturally put forward some suggestions, then remembered i was a member here, so here are my thoughts and that of others with credit to SCAN, eL aRef, Alistair McBean and Paul Wiggings. While i hate to call into question your sighting, it is looking likely that you didnt see a Liberator, but i dont think the colours of some of the following tie in either.

My first thought of course was Diamond Lil, but i missed that 10 years later, and as noted here, that was Desert colours anyway. Then i thought of this being a Mitchell of some description and wonder if anyone else can confirm someone was using these for Photo Mapping at the time which might mean that they would not necessarily be operating into a Scottish Airfield. Having seen at least one(N9089Z?) at North Weald, i seem to remember someone using Mitchells as film camera ships but dont know the time frame, again, anyone confirm that? The Hanover street link adds to my thoughts what you saw was a Mitchell, but how long did these hang around after filming and when/where did they go home?

The Strathallan Lanc was noted flying around that time by one, but discounted by another, and of course the RAF were operating Shackleton AEW2s at the time, which from some angles would look more like a Liberator than a Mitchell. I also put up that Loganair had a Beech 18 in use, but that was tucked up at East Fortune 5 years before your sighting, but other airframes may have been operating at the time.

There was mention of an Atlantic visiting Edinburgh on 22/11/82, but that looks nothing like a Liberator and the general consensus is you saw a Shackleton.
Arabest,
Geoff.
The Mitchells from Hanover Street were parked (stored?) at Blackbushe for several years in a line down the middle of the airfield, with one or two at least subsequently appearing in The Eye of the Needle. Eventually one went to the RAF Museum at Hendon from which it is now being removed, dismantled. They didn't do a whole lot of flying while at Blackbushe.

Stagger2
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by Stagger2 »

Good analysis Arabjazzie. I had these B-25 Camera-ship colour schemes in mind, but can't recall which was used in what film! I have the slightest thought the Tallmantz version was used for Hannover Street. The film's B-25's sat for an age at Blackbushe Airport, located on the borders of Hampshire, Berkshire and Surrey after filming had wrapped .
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GeeRam
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by GeeRam »

One of 8 Sqn's Shack's out of Lossie has to be the most logical explanation.

The AEW2 Shack fleet had been halved in size the year before when 6 of the 12 x AEW2's were withdrawn from service, but the remaining six would have still been a common sight flying around Scotland up until final withdraw from service in 1991.

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XO-1
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by XO-1 »

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I hadn't considered the possibility that I might have got the number of engines wrong and it could have been a B-25 - I suppose a B-25 does look much like a B-24 from below (engines notwithstanding) but I'd be surprised if I made a basic error like that. I did win the aircraft recognition competition at my ATC squadron a couple of years later after all... :wink:

I do still have a distinct memory of seeing the aircraft flying over my house (about 3 miles south-east of EDI) low enough to see the sunlight glint off the the nose turret (I surmised in my log at the time that it must have been a B-24G or later by the shape of the nose) and getting a good impression of the colour and matt finish of the undersides. I've also found a summary these "ghost B-24" sightings I made a few years later in another log book, and in that I noted that on the October 1982 sighting (probably the same occasion), I could see "U.S. ARMY" titles under the wings (though I think that in itself might be anachronistic for a late-model B-24?), which would rule out the possibility of it being a Shackleton (which had distinctive red underwing serials).

I am feeling a bit daft claiming to have seen something that doesn't seem to tie up with any known aircraft, but I can assure you I'm not making this up!

GeeRam
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by GeeRam »

I don't think were even any airworthy B-25's in the UK in 1982?
1982 was the first Great Warbirds Display at West Malling and I don't recall seeing at B-25 there in those first 2 or 3 shows, and pretty much most of the then active UK warbird population did those early shows.

Only radial engine larger aircraft flying in UK back then I can think of was the DC3 fleet of Air Atlantique etc., and B-17 Sally-B, and in 1982 Sally-B was still wearing it's natural aluminium finish, not olive drab.

There was the Varsity still flying then, but that wasn't in olive drab, or US markings of course!

Mike
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by Mike »

One of the Hannover Street B-25s was certainly being operated by Jeff Hawke in 1981. Whether it was still flying (I hesitate to use the term ‘airworthy’) the following year, I can’t recall.

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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by Amp »

Big Bad Bonnie was flying then, but I don't believe it had US Army under the wing.

GeeRam
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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by GeeRam »

Mike wrote:
Sun 08 May 2022, 6:24 pm
One of the Hannover Street B-25s was certainly being operated by Jeff Hawke in 1981. Whether it was still flying (I hesitate to use the term ‘airworthy’) the following year, I can’t recall.
:laughing:

I can't remember if I ever saw BBB flying back then? Might have done, but it was 40 odd years ago now, but I don't recall ever seeing it fly.

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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by AMB »

Mike wrote:
Sun 08 May 2022, 6:24 pm
One of the Hannover Street B-25s was certainly being operated by Jeff Hawke in 1981. Whether it was still flying (I hesitate to use the term ‘airworthy’) the following year, I can’t recall.
"Big Bad Bonnie'" was certainly flying in 1982 and appeared at the Biggin Hill Air Fair in May that year newly repainted in a gloss brown/green USAAF camouflage scheme.
Adrian

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Re: B-24 Liberator in the UK in 1982?

Post by hunterxf382 »

A of a late reply to this, but it was bugging me that I recalled Diamond Lil arriving in the UK, and now I've found the video of that trip in 1992 on YouTube, and it did fly into Kinloss enroute to Norwich, so maybe the 10 year difference from the OP's post was a mere time slip in memory after all?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H289vzn ... Dzenowagis
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