AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

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p2philip
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by p2philip »

B-52 flypast announced on Facebook on their way from Aviano to Ramstein … no info on which day so far.

Edit: supposed to happen on Friday

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JJC
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by JJC »

Great show yesterday.

Lack of Austrian helis is puzzling though…?
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Roger_Over
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Roger_Over »

Plenty of 212’s on the base though….

The B-52 flypast is scheduled for 15.08 according to the AirPower website if of interest.

Enjoy the show!

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Canberra TT.18
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Canberra TT.18 »

JJC wrote:
Sat 03 Sep 2022, 4:53 am
Great show yesterday.

Lack of Austrian helis is puzzling though…?
Around the field where many.
North east a number.
And at East side totally 8 on 2 different pitches.
Flying only the 9 Alouettes

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aviodromefriend
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by aviodromefriend »

Really like their special EF2000. Didn't know they were a tiger squadron, or did they take it over from the 105s?
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by G-CVIX »

https://www.airpower.gv.at/live-stream/?lang=en

Live Stream in for anyone at home.

Croatian MiG-21 looked immense.

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by JMC »

What a venue.

Some things Zeltweg do better than RIAT and vice versa!

Hopefully DBH can borrow Zeltwegs speakers!

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Professor_M »

JMC wrote:
Sat 03 Sep 2022, 4:41 pm
What a venue.

Some things Zeltweg do better than RIAT and vice versa!

Hopefully DBH can borrow Zeltwegs speakers!
Perhaps also the backdrop (surely the most stunning backdrop of any large military show in the world - any rivals out there?) and the rarer European participants.

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Canberra TT.18
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Canberra TT.18 »

JMC wrote:
Sat 03 Sep 2022, 4:41 pm
What a venue.

Some things Zeltweg do better than RIAT and vice versa!

Hopefully DBH can borrow Zeltwegs speakers!
And somethings are worse.
Parking eg.
Yesterday
Had to walk about 2 km to the gate and I was close. Car was at east landing and after de Croatian Mig I walked back and watch it from their including landings. When I left around no
1 o'clock still hordes of people walked to the entrance.
Today on the news, traffic jams up to 3 hours even around noon, for park and ride!!!

Static is terrible to photograph, didn't bother.
It seems they do not have enough space. As the second Turkish F-4 ( with special tail) and F-16, German Tornado and Dutch F-16 were parked at the flight line.
Odd that yesterday the tiger flight (2 EFT Tornado Gripen Alphet Jet) were pulled from the static.
A lot of Red Bull Aircraft, I know it is a main sponsor. (What an absurd fleet they have)!

It is not a main military show like RIAT. So compare it that way is not fair.
And although the mountains in the back are beautiful it is always a bit hazy (this being my 3rd visit and I recall it's been that every time).

But then again great show great variation, and some real great and unique items especially the Croatian MiG-21 and Chinees Y-20

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by JMC »

Hence why I said Vice Versa. There’s a lot that RIAT do better; static, less crowds, toilets, cash machines (I could only find one today and that was empty), food, ease of travel to Swindon…

Things that Zeltweg does better: backdrop, better atmosphere, HD speakers, no corporate chalets scattered at along the front, some displays were really close Patrouille Suisse/That crazy Frecce manoeuvre (can see why it was banned at RIAT how low were they?).

The queues to get on the train were at stupid levels.

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by JMC »

The amount of time the B-52 was holding it could’ve given us a full role demo!

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by bishbashbosh »

Second time at Zeltweg for me, but first time with the Spotter package. Just the Fri/Sat due to childcare commitments, but boy was it worth the money. Parking right next to the main entrance and straight in - no queues or traffic at all. Same on the way out. Choice of 17 spotter locations. I spent the Fri in the enclosure ahead of the crowdline at display centre. I only realised how busy it was behind when I went for a leak. I almost felt guilty at having so much space! Then spent this morning directly opposite on the live side (next to where the balloon was first thing). Having helicopters and fast jets whizzing over your head is both exhilarating and terrifying! Being at the centre of the min radius turns was pretty special though.

Flying was varied and well executed. Loved the Alouette farewell, but then again I’m a helicopter guy. Got to stand next to the Hip and Hind as they landed - amazing! Also got to tick the Tiger off my bucket list too, and a nice display to boot! MiG-21 was short and sweet, but shame not to see them on the ground. Nice to see the B-52 and with plenty of smoke on departure. The Austrian QRA demo ripped it up as usual. Surprise for me was Blanix - very well flown.

Static was usual Zeltweg. Lots of quality but barriers way too close (I never moan about blue cones anymore). I managed to get a shot of most things at the end of the day but it was pretty dark by then. At least today they dragged the Chinese out onto the runway at the end for a nice clean shot. Also enjoyed the museum, but disappointed so many other people found it too!

And the background - sure beats piles of rubble and bulldozers!
2024 shows: Abingdon, Cosford, Sywell, RIAT, Zeltweg with a couple of Duxford and Shutteworth shows thrown into the mix.

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by aviodromefriend »

JMC wrote:
Sat 03 Sep 2022, 6:15 pm
Things that Zeltweg does better: backdrop,
It takes hundreds or thousands of years to have it grown like it is now. Nothing a show can do about it (except moving to another venue. What airfield in the UK has something like that already?)
Canberra TT.18 wrote:
Sat 03 Sep 2022, 5:44 pm
And although the mountains in the back are beautiful it is always a bit hazy (this being my 3rd visit and I recall it's been that every time).
I do remember shows early in the milleneum that had a sharp view of the backdrop.

Some comments what were made during the last bit of the show that might be of interest: According to the commentator from the Flying Bulls a show in 2025 won't happen, and its return could be expected in '26. After that the normal show commentators were lyrical about Airpower '25. I'm afraid that as the Flying Bulls are one of the main organisers, their commentator might have had the more recent information.
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by JMC »

Oh of course, was just saying it as a remark i’m not expecting DBH to get big cardboard copy of mountains for next show haha!

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Bodz156 »

They simply don't have the acres of tarmac at Zeltweg to do static displays that suit photography - I think the items they do fit on there are of great quality nevertheless...the flying display is excellent, great variation, flown closer, often more dynamically (IMO) without the oneress UK regs getting in the way & *with flares* from some aircraft. Plus the major selling points of the beautiful location & FREE entry (instead of being fleeced for a £60+ a day ticket) 🤷‍♂️

The show not being on our doorstep & not annual is obviously a drawback...

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by jalfrezi »

Bodz156 wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 12:48 am
They simply don't have the acres of tarmac at Zeltweg to do static displays that suit photography - I think the items they do fit on there are of great quality nevertheless...the flying display is excellent, great variation, flown closer, often more dynamically (IMO) without the oneress UK regs getting in the way & *with flares* from some aircraft. Plus the major selling points of the beautiful location & FREE entry (instead of being fleeced for a £60+ a day ticket) 🤷‍♂️

The show not being on our doorstep & not annual is obviously a drawback...
Having just got back from my first Zeltweg show there's quite a lot I disagree with you on.

You say the flying display is excellent, yes there were some great acts this year and yes I think the flying display probably eclipsed RIAT this year, however, there's also a lot of Red Bull fluff in the program, I mean, can you imagine an Aviat Husky with floats in the RIAT flying programme? There would be uproar! The Yak 3 (in the bogus markings) and Boomerang slot was ridiculously long, and the pairing of the Draken and Galeb had a tenuous link, at best. We all know the reason RIAT can't have flares, sure it would be nice, but people can't keep using it as a stick to beat it with. Another annoyance was that with all of the Blackhawks and 212s there, it was a bit of a travesty not to have a role demo - they could have done that instead of some of the other fluff.

The static is pretty much unphotographable all day - go early and lots still has covers on, go late and everything is surrounded by hordes of people. It's also badly laid out, you have rows of aircraft running one way, and then the vintage aircraft running perpendicular, forcing people to funnel through narrow gaps - it's just poor. The Chinese Y-20 was a great catch, they did have some quality on static but most of the aircraft are based much closer to Zeltweg than RIAT, some of these aircraft cannot get to RIAT because of the distance, or because they're not cleared to cross water. Also, no French or Spanish aircraft, and only the 1000ft fly-by of the B-52 - which was a very late addition, otherwise there would have been no US participation. Last point on the static, Turkey sent two Phantoms, only one of which ended up on static, the other sat on the live apron both days.

Free shows are good, 150k people crammed into half the area of RIAT is not. The location is beautiful though!

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by aviodromefriend »

jalfrezi wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 9:47 pm
I mean, can you imagine an Aviat Husky with floats in the RIAT flying programme? There would be uproar!
If they would run a naval theme I wouldn't be surprised if DBH books that same aircraft. And was it a solo display, or were there other up at the same time (during not such a long slot)? It is a Red Bull sponsored show, you can expect some Flying Bulls aircraft. This one being relatively close to Salzburg, you can also expect to get a lot of their smaller machines, not only a B-25 or P-38. Missed their Saab 105 though.
jalfrezi wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 9:47 pm
We all know the reason RIAT can't have flares, sure it would be nice, but people can't keep using it as a stick to beat it with.
Well, I still have hopes that the new hangars opposite FRIAT provide a possibulity to allow the handling of flares.
jalfrezi wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 9:47 pm
and only the 1000ft fly-by of the B-52 - which was a very late addition, otherwise there would have been no US participation.
At what hight would the BUFF have flown if it wasn't cancelled at RIAT? As they don't have a dedicated display crew, I would be surprised if it would have been much lower at Fairford. And what are Austria's (the country that peacefully presented itself to Nazi-Germany and that gave birth to a certain person called Adolf Hitler) links with the USA to demand US participation at Airpower at all?
jalfrezi wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 9:47 pm
Last point on the static, Turkey sent two Phantoms, only one of which ended up on static, the other sat on the live apron both days.
You complain about the static, then they have done something about it by moving an aircraft which type and operator already was on static out of the static and then you complain about that?
jalfrezi wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 9:47 pm
Free shows are good, 150k people crammed into half the area of RIAT is not.
Going by the overviews on the livestream, there was a lot of space away from the crowdline. (Oh, and how many people were at RIAT during the pre Cottesmore days? I wouldn't be surprised if you would find out RIAT was more crammed back then than Zeltweg this year)
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Tommy
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Tommy »

aviodromefriend wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 6:43 am
jalfrezi wrote:
Sun 04 Sep 2022, 9:47 pm
Free shows are good, 150k people crammed into half the area of RIAT is not.
Going by the overviews on the livestream, there was a lot of space away from the crowdline. (Oh, and how many people were at RIAT during the pre Cottesmore days? I wouldn't be surprised if you would find out RIAT was more crammed back then than Zeltweg this year)
There wasn’t for the peak period of the day. The show, on Saturday especially, was rammed. It’s not as large a venue as RIAT, and I’ve never felt more claustrophobic at an airshow - trying to navigate your way to the toilets or food tents (if you wanted to queue!) was a nightmare. There were some spots that were more open, such as behind the massive mound, but that’s because you wouldn’t have been able to see anything sitting/standing behind it.

That’s not necessarily a complaint - I loved how busy it was; a great vibe and everyone really happy, but I don’t think anyone who was actually there would argue that RIAT is more crammed than Zeltweg. But then, I wasn’t around during those years, so I can’t compare. RIAT might have some pinch-points, sure, but Zeltweg was just a sea of people.

However, on both days after Frecce had displayed in the mid-afternoon, it started to thin out quite quickly. It was fascinating being on the mound and seeing some the crowd move towards the exit after the Frecce display - it almost looked like it was a liquid!

In more general terms - it’s probably a little unfair to compare Zeltweg to RIAT, both are different shows with a different vibe/focus.

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by JMC »

Tommy, I think the reason it started to thin out so quickly is because thousands had made the trip from Vienna and were in the mindset of ‘better catch the train before the end when its busy’ which resulted in that happening anyway.

And the comment above about ‘no US participation (B-52 aside) because well….they sided with the Nazi’s and Austria gave birth to Hitler’ is up there with the most bizarre comments i’ve read on here, it’s quite a reach. Better not tell the Americans about ILA Berlin then, considering they’ve sent aircraft there on multiple occasions.

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by jalfrezi »

My original reply was as a counter point to Bodz comment, from which I got the general impression that they were implying that Airpower was better than RIAT, it's not, for sure it is different, but I think there is a lot of 'familiarity breeds contempt' in some of the messages I've seen comparing it to RIAT. RIAT is still the best military airshow overall for participation. Do I have issues with RIAT - yes, but if we lost the show altogether it would be irreplaceable.
aviodromefriend wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 6:43 am
If they would run a naval theme I wouldn't be surprised if DBH books that same aircraft. And was it a solo display, or were there other up at the same time (during not such a long slot)? It is a Red Bull sponsored show, you can expect some Flying Bulls aircraft. This one being relatively close to Salzburg, you can also expect to get a lot of their smaller machines, not only a B-25 or P-38. Missed their Saab 105 though.
I've got to say, I doubt you'll ever see an Aviat Husky in the flying display at RIAT! Most of the Red Bull fleet went up at one time or another, some more than once. I could list all of the Red Bull aircraft that took part, but it would be a long list and it took up a sizeable chunk of the show overall. Obviously, I accept that it is in essence a Red Bull airshow, as they are the main sponsor. While it was a novelty for me to see them, as I hadn't seen them before, I'm sure more regular attendees of Airpower shows are less enthused about them, much like enthusiasts from the UK get fed up seeing UK registered civil aircraft at RIAT.
aviodromefriend wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 6:43 am
At what hight would the BUFF have flown if it wasn't cancelled at RIAT? As they don't have a dedicated display crew, I would be surprised if it would have been much lower at Fairford. And what are Austria's (the country that peacefully presented itself to Nazi-Germany and that gave birth to a certain person called Adolf Hitler) links with the USA to demand US participation at Airpower at all?
The B-52 for RIAT was down as a display, rather than a flypast IIRC? It was also to be based at Fairford, so we would have had take off, landing and multiple flypasts and possibly missed approaches - not sure what altitude it would have been cleared down to though.
aviodromefriend wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 6:43 am
You complain about the static, then they have done something about it by moving an aircraft which type and operator already was on static out of the static and then you complain about that?
I complained about the static as IMO it was badly laid out, I accept there are space restrictions as to what they can and can't fit on the showground, but leaving a special tailed Turkish F-4 Phantom on the live apron, far away from the crowd, was not a good use of the available aircraft in my opinion. We did have a Grumman AA5 on static, so I guess that makes up for it? If I was an Austrian spotter and hadn't seen that special tailed Phantom, I would be fuming. As it happens, that aircraft had been on static at RIAT a few years ago, so I'd already seen it.
aviodromefriend wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 6:43 am
Going by the overviews on the livestream, there was a lot of space away from the crowdline. (Oh, and how many people were at RIAT during the pre Cottesmore days? I wouldn't be surprised if you would find out RIAT was more crammed back then than Zeltweg this year)
That size crowd is more the exception than the norm now, here's a couple of shots from the scissorlift. The crowd was solid about 20+ rows deep in the middle of the crowdline, it did thin out a bit towards the western end. First pic shows a bit of free space, but you can see how solid the crowdline is, the second pic shows you that in more detail (along with a nice F-4).

Image069A8569 by Nick Jennings, on Flickr

Image069A8568 by Nick Jennings, on Flickr

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by capercaillie »

Wow, that crowd is absolutely heaving, especially from the first pic.

I went there in 2003, and the crowds were massive then, weather wasn't as nice as that though, but its gained even more notoriety since then. we had to endure a Red Bull air race each day for an hour and a half around the markers, to be honest would rather the Red Bull mish mash collection you saw.

We did have Drakens in service back then to compensate. Static still looks as impossible as ever to photograph, although we also had to navigate large wooden posts on the corner of each aircraft!
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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Bodz156 »

I think it's better in some ways....but not in others. Being free to get into is a big plus for me for any show! I'd visit lots of events if the ticket prices were more reasonable in this country, as it is I can barely manage 1 or 2 now...next year RIAT might even get missed if the energy prices are as forecast. The location is obviously more picturesque, the vibe is less corporate for me as well (even though it's half-funded by Red Bull!). The static is obviously worse for photography, & yes, it is much busier (that actually didn't bother me at all when I went in 2016..the weather was great both days that year too. Some things better, some worse...I don't think that's a controversial view personally.

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Tommy »

JMC wrote:
Mon 05 Sep 2022, 8:33 am
Tommy, I think the reason it started to thin out so quickly is because thousands had made the trip from Vienna and were in the mindset of ‘better catch the train before the end when its busy’ which resulted in that happening anyway.
Yeah, I think Frecce were put on deliberately at the time they were so people could use it as a nice conclusion to their day and make tracks home.

I think it worked well overall, but yes, during peak times, absolutely stacked crowd.

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Tommy »

You can also see from Nick’s first image, the modern jets in the taxiway were in a line parallel to the runway, and then the An-2 to the Me108 were 90 degrees to it, and you can see the pinch point of people trying to squeeze between the crowd line and the food/toilets behind.

I think that’s what Nick meant about the static being oddly laid out (though that was the worst of it, it was much better everywhere else).

Another point, and I might be wrong here, but a twin-seat AMX turned up late Saturday after the show, and I don’t think it was put on static for the Sunday show (I did have a look and couldn’t find it, but it may have been hiding in a corner), but much like the second Turkish F-4, Dutch F-16, if that sat live side for the whole of the weekend, imagine how vexed you’d be if you were a day-goer, to find out a soon-to-be retired aircraft (and a decent surprise!) was sat out of public view for the whole time it was there.

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Re: AIRPOWER22 - Zeltweg, Austria

Post by Witchcraft24 »

Surely comparisons are pointless - we want a diverse air show scene across Europe, with every location having its strengths (and weaknesses)… places to visit to give us the unique or the different?
Of course everybody could learn from everybody else - try and take the good bits and apply them if possible, but across Europe these big shows are reducing - certainly those held annually - so celebrate what you have.